Preseason ranking of the top 10 forwards in the Valley

by **MVCfans** » September 10th, 2012, 6:06 am

Ranking the forwards was more challenging than the guards, particularly after the top 4. I know there are a number of arguments about why a player should be higher or lower than I have them here, but this is how I see it.

Link: The MVC Report - Preseason ranking of the top 10 forwards in the Missouri Valley Conference

I will rank the Top 5 centers later this week.

**Sponsor**

by **Red** » September 10th, 2012, 9:42 am

I love seeing 3 Redbirds on the extended list and I am really excited for the season. If we can get strong guard play we are going to be very good.

by **Wufan** » September 10th, 2012, 9:06 pm

I'm surprised to see Tuttle ahead of Simons. Ekey, Tuttle, Hall, and Daniels all had very similar stats last year, but DD and CH should see a big increase is stats with the graduation of Seck and Stutz. Clarke is a little different player than the four mentioned above, but with 7 boards a game he certainly deserves a spot in this group.

by **Ali** » September 11th, 2012, 7:26 am

If it weren't for Doug I think Tuttle could win POY this season.

by **uniftw** » September 11th, 2012, 7:37 am

Wufan wrote:I'm surprised to see Tuttle ahead of Simons. Ekey, Tuttle, Hall, and Daniels all had very similar stats last year, but DD and CH should see a big increase is stats with the graduation of Seck and Stutz. Clarke is a little different player than the four mentioned above, but with 7 boards a game he certainly deserves a spot in this group.

I've done a breakdown of Tuttle/Hall. Tuttle had better numbers in every category except 1 or 2 and did so with less shots offensively and fouls defensively. I'll see if I can find it again. Tuttle was much more efficient in his minutes than Hall was.

by **mvcfan** » September 11th, 2012, 11:24 am

uniftw wrote:
Wufan wrote:I'm surprised to see Tuttle ahead of Simons. Ekey, Tuttle, Hall, and Daniels all had very similar stats last year, but DD and CH should see a big increase is stats with the graduation of Seck and Stutz. Clarke is a little different player than the four mentioned above, but with 7 boards a game he certainly deserves a spot in this group.

I've done a breakdown of Tuttle/Hall. Tuttle had better numbers in every category except 1 or 2 and did so with less shots offensively and fouls defensively. I'll see if I can find it again. Tuttle was much more efficient in his minutes than Hall was.

Couldn't a reason for that be that Hall was fighting so many others for the efficiency. The Shockers were extremely balanced and well rounded. One thing that I know for sure that Tuttle wasn't nearly as good as Hall on defense. Hall was an animal on post defense and at times he was chasing players like Weems on the perimeter and he was successful at playing physical inside and being quick outside. Tuttle couldn't have handled the same defensive responsibilities.

by **DoubleJayAlum** » September 11th, 2012, 12:20 pm

Tuttle was a lot more consistent from game to game. Hall seemed to be up and down. If he is going to lead the Shockers this year, consistency is going to have to be his calling card.

by **cpacmel** » September 11th, 2012, 3:56 pm

Ali wrote:If it weren't for Doug I think Tuttle could win POY this season.

So :

Tuttle > Carmichael ?

by **uniftw** » September 11th, 2012, 4:54 pm

mvcfan wrote:
uniftw wrote:
Wufan wrote:I'm surprised to see Tuttle ahead of Simons. Ekey, Tuttle, Hall, and Daniels all had very similar stats last year, but DD and CH should see a big increase is stats with the graduation of Seck and Stutz. Clarke is a little different player than the four mentioned above, but with 7 boards a game he certainly deserves a spot in this group.

I've done a breakdown of Tuttle/Hall. Tuttle had better numbers in every category except 1 or 2 and did so with less shots offensively and fouls defensively. I'll see if I can find it again. Tuttle was much more efficient in his minutes than Hall was.

Couldn't a reason for that be that Hall was fighting so many others for the efficiency. The Shockers were extremely balanced and well rounded. One thing that I know for sure that Tuttle wasn't nearly as good as Hall on defense. Hall was an animal on post defense and at times he was chasing players like Weems on the perimeter and he was successful at playing physical inside and being quick outside. Tuttle couldn't have handled the same defensive responsibilities.

Maybe? I'm talking looking numbers straight across. If Hall wasn't efficient because of other players I really would rather have tuttle. Here is my post, word for word from this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2282&start=12

Tuttle
22.4 mpg 65.2 fg% 44 3pt% 67.5 ft% 9.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 1.1 apg .5 bpg .8 spg 2.0 pfpg

Hall
22.3 mpg 57.2 fg% no 3pt attempted 64.6 ft% 8.4 ppg 5rpg .7 apg .8 bpg .5 spg 2.5 pfpg

They took nearly the same number of shots per game (5.3 for Tuttle and 5.7 for Hall). Tuttle scored more points per shot as well.

Tuttle showed he can stretch the D out of IF he has too, Hall won't even attempt a 3 so a defender doesn't have to "respect" him outside the post area.

FT% is similar but Tuttle had higher % and took 1 more per game 4 to 3 - both numbers shockingly low honestly though

Tuttle has an advantage is rebounds per game and assists per game and fouls less

Hall has him in blocks per game by .3

Odd...now I want to look at total numbers, not just averages to see how similar they really were

Tuttle
761 mintes 118-181 fgm-fga 4-6 3ptm-3pta 85-126 ftm-fta 325 points 190 rebounds 33 asissts 15 blocks 27 steals 68 personal fouls

Hall
736 min 107-187 fgm-fga 0-0 3ptm-3ptm 62-96 ftm-fta 276 points 165 rebounds 22 assists 26 blocks 15 steals 82 personal fouls

Minutes: Tuttle +25
FGM: Tuttle +11
FGA: Hall +6
3PTM: Tuttle +4
3PTA: Tuttle +9
FTM: Tuttle +23
FTA: Tuttle +30
Points: Tuttle +49
Assits: Tuttle +11
Blocks: Hall +11
Steals: Tuttle: +12
Personal Fouls: Hall +16

The only category Hall was better was blocks. The other two categories he "wins" are who fouls more (also probably part of the block number) and who takes more shots.

Tuttle may look raw...because he was a TRUE freshman. However, he was better in every category than Hall last year in an offense that scored scored 12 points less per game than Hall played in (77 to 65)

Honestly, before I looked at the numbers I expected Hall to have the better numbers, as he was talked about MUCH more last year than Tuttle. However, Tuttle was the better performer last year.

As you can see, Tuttle was more efficient while on the floor.

by **mvcfan** » September 11th, 2012, 5:47 pm

DoubleJayAlum wrote:Tuttle was a lot more consistent from game to game. Hall seemed to be up and down. If he is going to lead the Shockers this year, consistency is going to have to be his calling card.

I won't disagree with your offensive analysis but defensively, Hall is very good. As I said at 6'8, and 240lb. Hall turned out to be a very good perimeter defender when he was asked to do it (which most every game, he had to guard a smaller PF in the MVC). He does need to improve his offense. But defense is often overlooked by people who analyze and it's hard to put humbers to it.