Dan Muller

[Red]

It will probably take Muller a couple of years to learn how to be a successful head coach. I think most fans here are willing to accept that.

[rlh04d]

Assuming Muller was a good hire (and there is no reason to assume he wasn't)

Is there any reason to assume he was?

I don't know that much about the guy, so maybe there is. What I see at this point is a decade as an assistant coach with an okay SEC team, and one year as a HC where he underperformed significantly. And now a second year where he's decided to blow the entire team up, which I'd imagine is an incredibly risky proposition for someone with no experience leading a team or building one from scratch.

I'm not really sure where the confidence regarding his ability is based at. Maybe he's a great coach and he just needs his "type" of players to be successful ... but is there anything to base that on?

[CaliRdBrd]

Assuming Muller was a good hire (and there is no reason to assume he wasn't)

Is there any reason to assume he was?

I don't know that much about the guy, so maybe there is. What I see at this point is a decade as an assistant coach with an okay SEC team, and one year as a HC where he underperformed significantly. And now a second year where he's decided to blow the entire team up, which I'd imagine is an incredibly risky proposition for someone with no experience leading a team or building one from scratch.

I'm not really sure where the confidence regarding his ability is based at. Maybe he's a great coach and he just needs his "type" of players to be successful ... but is there anything to base that on?

I can't speak for everyone, but I loved his defensive tenacity as a player, his intelligence, determination, and I see that as a trait I want in a head coach When we were looking to replace Jank, I was pulling hard for Dan. I totally believe in him and enjoy having an alum at the helm. I think he had a couple of good players and bunch of underachievers. I like the fact that he cleaned house...maybe with the exception of Hill.
The scheduling has already been better, the recruiting has been better, he's not backing down from anything and I like it.

[Aargh]

The last Valley coach who either lost or ran off players at the rate IlSU is experiencing was named Lowery.

That didn't work out well for SIU, and there's little reason for anyone outside Normal to expect different results from what Muller has done.

The NBA is giving serious looks to Carmichael. Muller wasn't able to do much with Carmichael and what appeared to be a pretty decent supporting cast. That isn't inspiring confidence in Muller outside of Normal. How is there any expectation tht Muller can do better with a bunch of JuCo's than he could do with Carmichael and Allen?

I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation that Muller can do better with a bunch of players with no D1 experience than he could do with an all-MVC player, and Allen, and a bunch of proven Valley players. Wasn't IlSU the #2 pick in the pre-season polls? Evidently a couple of All-Valley type players didn't fit Muller's system so badly that IlSU was just able to avoid Thursday night in St. Louis.

Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Absolute delusion is performing an action that's obviously more likely to produce a worse result and expecting a better result.

[rlh04d]

Assuming Muller was a good hire (and there is no reason to assume he wasn't)

Is there any reason to assume he was?

I don't know that much about the guy, so maybe there is. What I see at this point is a decade as an assistant coach with an okay SEC team, and one year as a HC where he underperformed significantly. And now a second year where he's decided to blow the entire team up, which I'd imagine is an incredibly risky proposition for someone with no experience leading a team or building one from scratch.

I'm not really sure where the confidence regarding his ability is based at. Maybe he's a great coach and he just needs his "type" of players to be successful ... but is there anything to base that on?

I can't speak for everyone, but I loved his defensive tenacity as a player, his intelligence, determination, and I see that as a trait I want in a head coach When we were looking to replace Jank, I was pulling hard for Dan. I totally believe in him and enjoy having an alum at the helm. I think he had a couple of good players and bunch of underachievers. I like the fact that he cleaned house...maybe with the exception of Hill.
The scheduling has already been better, the recruiting has been better, he's not backing down from anything and I like it.

While I respect your reasons, and I'd certainly be saying the same things in your situation, he still hasn't proven anything as a HC yet.

He's definitely a proven recruiter. Obviously he's a proven person with most IlSU fans as a former player. But there seems to be a LOT of confidence up there about an unproven coach who failed in his first season and is undertaking a monumental turnaround this coming season that would be a big challenge for a proven coach, let alone a young guy in his second year.

The Valley's a tough place for a brand new head coach to cut his teeth.

[Bmarq04]

No doubt why I can see folks outside of Normal questioning any future success. If I remove myself from any bias towards the situation, it does look like a hell of an uphill battle towards success.

One thing I do want to throw out though....many people seem to talk about how much he underachieved with a great team this year. Although I do view last year as a fail, what in our roster constituted a great team? I'll throw this out to shocker fans since you seem to be the highest in volume of posters.....which of ISUs players would you have taken over your guys? Jackie and Tyler are likely choices, but seriously, who else? ISU was picked second but if you go back and dissect the roster, we had 2 good players and a roster of avg to below avg players. Good, balanced teams beat 2 stars and an avg cast 80%. Nights where Jackie and/or Tyler were neutralized gave us nearly no chance. We needed those two and someone else to step up all the time. But having that other person to step up was a major issue.

Next question, with the cast that was slated to return, what players would you take over nearly all other starters in the league? Who on our roster was gonna be that game changer that led us to victory? Who would you take ahead of your guys?

If I'm nearly every other team I look at this ISU team that coming back as more of a joke. There's debate as to whether Muller blew up the roster or players left on their own. I don't care to get into that, but put yourself in Muller's shoes......most coaches have 3-4 years before their job is extended or cut. You have a roster of players whose strengths don't fit your system and what you think it takes to win at this level. Sure you could tailor a system that you don't believe in to the roster on hand, or you could go out and get what you believe in and try to prove that your way is the right way. If you were in his shoes and knew you had 3-4 years to determine much of the rest of your career, would you tailor something that isn't what you want or would you go all out and do it your way and truly reap and rewards or failures? I would much rather fail my way than to try something I dont believe in and fail with regrets of not being true to myself and how I wanted it.

Not meant to throw any of this at anyone. Just trying to further the discussion and get clarity on why it was believed that last years team was that good and what you would do with the situations I presented. When I look at it that way and take of my biased glasses, I just don't see that much to say Muller was this or that, I just see it as an unproven coach that believes in a system or culture and he wants to do it his way and take responsibility for his success or failure. Next year will be difficult with that many new players but the year after, if there aren't significant sides forward, then I think we'll know the answer

[CaliRdBrd]

No doubt why I can see folks outside of Normal questioning any future success. If I remove myself from any bias towards the situation, it does look like a hell of an uphill battle towards success.

One thing I do want to throw out though....many people seem to talk about how much he underachieved with a great team this year. Although I do view last year as a fail, what in our roster constituted a great team? I'll throw this out to shocker fans since you seem to be the highest in volume of posters.....which of ISUs players would you have taken over your guys? Jackie and Tyler are likely choices, but seriously, who else? ISU was picked second but if you go back and dissect the roster, we had 2 good players and a roster of avg to below avg players. Good, balanced teams beat 2 stars and an avg cast 80%. Nights where Jackie and/or Tyler were neutralized gave us nearly no chance. We needed those two and someone else to step up all the time. But having that other person to step up was a major issue.

Next question, with the cast that was slated to return, what players would you take over nearly all other starters in the league? Who on our roster was gonna be that game changer that led us to victory? Who would you take ahead of your guys?

If I'm nearly every other team I look at this ISU team that coming back as more of a joke. There's debate as to whether Muller blew up the roster or players left on their own. I don't care to get into that, but put yourself in Muller's shoes......most coaches have 3-4 years before their job is extended or cut. You have a roster of players whose strengths don't fit your system and what you think it takes to win at this level. Sure you could tailor a system that you don't believe in to the roster on hand, or you could go out and get what you believe in and try to prove that your way is the right way. If you were in his shoes and knew you had 3-4 years to determine much of the rest of your career, would you tailor something that isn't what you want or would you go all out and do it your way and truly reap and rewards or failures? I would much rather fail my way than to try something I dont believe in and fail with regrets of not being true to myself and how I wanted it.

Not meant to throw any of this at anyone. Just trying to further the discussion and get clarity on why it was believed that last years team was that good and what you would do with the situations I presented. When I look at it that way and take of my biased glasses, I just don't see that much to say Muller was this or that, I just see it as an unproven coach that believes in a system or culture and he wants to do it his way and take responsibility for his success or failure. Next year will be difficult with that many new players but the year after, if there aren't significant sides forward, then I think we'll know the answer

Spot on! Nicely said/written.

[capnkirk]

I had Illinois State picked to finish second this season based on how they finished last season and how much of the team was returning.

But now that I have read your post, and looking back at your schedule with wins & loses I can see the error in my thinking.

[Bmarq04]

I had Illinois State picked to finish second this season based on how they finished last season and how much of the team was returning.

But now that I have read your post, and looking back at you schedule with wins & loses I can see the error in my thinking.

I did the same thing. I had us at the top 2-3 at worst. But I failed to really look at the team. I used the final team from the previous year to make my opinion. I didn't consider the change in a coaching style and the impact on players. I failed to consider the loss of Nic Moore (17 games in double figures, last 3 games against creighton, ole miss, and Stanford, he averaged 23 and 5). It was easy to do and to look at last year with blind optimism.

I think getting Muller's players and his system will be good for ISU and the Valley. Next year has the potential to be very rocky. My gut is that they'll be so-so thru non con. Take some lumps in conf, but slide by at the end to avoid Thurs night. Not so much because they're that good, but because I feel the valley as a whole is down a little. The following 2 years, I expect noise. If not, I expect a new coach at the end of his contract.

I put this together because I see several people rip him for last years results, but in reality, the team was very average on paper and in the court. The rest of the team just wasn't good.

[valleychamp]

The last Valley coach who either lost or ran off players at the rate IlSU is experiencing was named Lowery.

That didn't work out well for SIU, and there's little reason for anyone outside Normal to expect different results from what Muller has done.

The NBA is giving serious looks to Carmichael. Muller wasn't able to do much with Carmichael and what appeared to be a pretty decent supporting cast. That isn't inspiring confidence in Muller outside of Normal. How is there any expectation tht Muller can do better with a bunch of JuCo's than he could do with Carmichael and Allen?

I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation that Muller can do better with a bunch of players with no D1 experience than he could do with an all-MVC player, and Allen, and a bunch of proven Valley players. Wasn't IlSU the #2 pick in the pre-season polls? Evidently a couple of All-Valley type players didn't fit Muller's system so badly that IlSU was just able to avoid Thursday night in St. Louis.

Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Absolute delusion is performing an action that's obviously more likely to produce a worse result and expecting a better result.

Good God, what a myopic viewpoint. He's coached one season, and he's already deemed the next Lowery? Give me a break, let the guy get settled in with his own players.

Sometimes when there is a change in coaching regimes, the mesh of styles and personalities do not work. Just from the limited knowledge I have, it sure seems like Muller and Jankovic are very different coaches with different personalities, so it should be no surprise that it wasn't exactly a perfectly smooth and successful season.

Did Gregg Marshall win like 10 games in his first season? You simply cannot condemn a coach after one season.

Yeah, Muller had Carmichael and Brown. But Brown obviously was a selfish turd as he had to be suspended early in the season. And Jankovic took his starting PG with him to SMU. The fact is, ISU was a little overrated coming into last season based on a 5 game stretch at the end of the previous year where they looked good. When you lose your head coach, your starting PG, and have little depth, the expectations for that team were simply to high.