Syracuse loses! Shox lone unbeaten

[rlh04d]

I think that statistic is extremely interesting, personally.

Ran some other major programs to see how they stack up:

Kansas: 13-12
Duke: 15-9
Michigan State: 10-13
Ohio State: 7-11
Kentucky: 9-12

Simple state. Road and neutral site wins against top 75 RPI. That's a stat that has nothing to do with what conference you play in.

That's not just a "WSU is outpacing it's mid-major peers" type of stat. That's "WSU is outpacing everyone."

[bigdawg]

WSU vs Top 75 RPI??? No one uses that metric. Why not top 50 or Top 100? And why not include losses in the conference tournament? I'm guessing a lot of those 50-75 RPI spot wins are over teams like Indiana St and UNI (no disrespect) while some of the others are losses to Top 25 level teams.

A stat like this is terribly misleading in my opinion. It's a creation someone used to make a point when a metric others would use wouldn't support their argument.

[Cdizzle]

WSU vs Top 75 RPI??? No one uses that metric. Why not top 50 or Top 100? And why not include losses in the conference tournament? I'm guessing a lot of those 50-75 RPI spot wins are over teams like Indiana St and UNI (no disrespect) while some of the others are losses to Top 25 level teams.

A stat like this is terribly misleading in my opinion. It's a creation someone used to make a point when a metric others would use wouldn't support their argument.

Yep. But by the same token, why do tournament resume sheets get broken down into Top50 and Top100? Why not Top 68 and Top 136? They are all just random lines drawn in the sand.

Taking your point a step further, lets assume that, on average, Duke's opponents are 20 spots higher. Has Duke not been, on average, ranked 20 spots higher than WSU? If so, the numbers still support that Duke has been over-valued compared to WSU.

You are correct that metrics can be augmented and misleading. But if many are doing so to discredit a team like WSU, why should someone wanting to prove WSU's worth not do the same?

[Mike]

WSU should definitely be receiving votes as the No. 1 team in the country and currently deserves one of the No. 1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament. The disrespect WSU gets is because it has a low strength of schedule, has only played one game against a Top 50 (RPI) opponent this year, and plays in the MVC that has an RPI rating that is not in the top ten of NCAA conferences.

[Singeril]

Curious---what would the Shocker's RPI have been at the beginning of the season (before the first tip-off) using the schedule that was in hand---and based upon the records and stats of last season? The Shockers could do nothing, after that, other than go and play the schedule--the teams they have played, however, for the most part, have fallen flat. There is nothing the Shockers could do about that. The Shockers have tried and tried to upgrade their schedule even further. It is no fault of theirs that the other teams haven't lived up to their "standards".

[Mike]

Curious---what would the Shocker's RPI have been at the beginning of the season (before the first tip-off) using the schedule that was in hand---and based upon the records and stats of last season? The Shockers could do nothing, after that, other than go and play the schedule--the teams they have played, however, for the most part, have fallen flat. There is nothing the Shockers could do about that. The Shockers have tried and tried to upgrade their schedule even further. It is no fault of theirs that the other teams haven't lived up to their "standards".

The only thing within the Shockers control is to possibly change conferences; a topic we have beaten to death in here. I went onto espn.com and looked at the RPI ratings this morning. Just for comparison, Creighton is 6th in those ratings compared to the Shockers at 8 despite Creighton's 4 losses. Shockers strength of schedule is 111 compared to 29 for Creighton and Creighton has had 5 games against Top 50 (RPI) opponents compared to 1 for WSU. Creighton is not a better team but they are in a better conference and that is why those numbers are what they are.

[rlh04d]

WSU vs Top 75 RPI??? No one uses that metric. Why not top 50 or Top 100? And why not include losses in the conference tournament? I'm guessing a lot of those 50-75 RPI spot wins are over teams like Indiana St and UNI (no disrespect) while some of the others are losses to Top 25 level teams.

A stat like this is terribly misleading in my opinion. It's a creation someone used to make a point when a metric others would use wouldn't support their argument.

Why are you guessing? Is it really that hard for you to open up the schedules for the last two years and make an informed point rather than just randomly guessing? I could guess a lot of things about you that probably wouldn't be true >=)

I'll calculate the others teams out for you, but here you go ... WSU's record against the RPI top 50, road or neutral, including postseason play, over the last three seasons: 8-5

WSU just missed out on one other (Colorado at #51 in Puerto Rico), and we'll see where Indiana State finishes this year.

4-4 record against the top 25, road or neutral, including postseason play, over the last three seasons. Losses to Temple in Puerto Rico, twice to Creighton last year, and Louisville in the Final Four. That number changes depending on where you look for RPI numbers ... I'm using Warren Nolan's site, but RealTimeRPI lists VCU last year at #25, and their site would give WSU a 5-4 record.

Oh, and of that 13-4 record? Two of those losses were to top 25 teams. Creighton in the season finale last year, Temple in Puerto Rico the year before.

For the record, WSU's record against the top 50 is better than any other team's against the top 75 that I've listed. Even their record against the top 25 is better than almost anyone I listed against the top 75.

(I'm guessing he left off postseason play so as to not give the impression that WSU's Final Four was the reason for the numbers he was using. I guess you could cut it off at the conference tournament, but that would really be picking and choosing your numbers. If you're going to include one postseason tournament, you include both.)

[Wufan]

WSU vs Top 75 RPI??? No one uses that metric. Why not top 50 or Top 100? And why not include losses in the conference tournament? I'm guessing a lot of those 50-75 RPI spot wins are over teams like Indiana St and UNI (no disrespect) while some of the others are losses to Top 25 level teams.

A stat like this is terribly misleading in my opinion. It's a creation someone used to make a point when a metric others would use wouldn't support their argument.

If anyone is so inclined, I would be interested in seeing road/neutral wins against top 50 and/or top 100. I imagine it would demonstrate a similar trend line.

[rlh04d]

WSU vs Top 75 RPI??? No one uses that metric. Why not top 50 or Top 100? And why not include losses in the conference tournament? I'm guessing a lot of those 50-75 RPI spot wins are over teams like Indiana St and UNI (no disrespect) while some of the others are losses to Top 25 level teams.

A stat like this is terribly misleading in my opinion. It's a creation someone used to make a point when a metric others would use wouldn't support their argument.

If anyone is so inclined, I would be interested in seeing road/neutral wins against top 50 and/or top 100. I imagine it would demonstrate a similar trend line.

I'll calculate out vs top 25, top 50, and top 100 for all the teams I mentioned after work unless someone beats me to it.

Really not hard to do. Just hop on Warren Nolan's site, copy stuff into a spreadsheet, sort it by location and then by RPI, and delete everything that isn't relevant. Only took me 15 minutes to find the records vs top 75.

[Pinkie]

Wichita St is undefeated because the Shox are good and the teams they've played haven't been. It's lunacy to think about a dozen other teams wouldn't also be undefeated playing their schedule. As Goodman pointed out, their only "quality" win is really SLU. But look at SLU, they are highly ranked only because they also haven't played anyone worth a damn. It's sort of the perfect storm for WSU.