UNI - Split from the Evansville Thread

[unipanther99]

P.S. Can this thread be moved to the basketball board?

Done. I don't know why I moved it to off topic in the first place.

[Ace Dad]

The FACT remains that few people are putting money into the UNI basketball program, or seemingly UNI athletics at all. The school is a stone's throw away from being a DII or DIII school and it is located in a lousy town in the middle of nowhere. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. None of that is going to change anytime soon.

I am not buying it: every 3-4 years the "superior mentality" disease afflicts a different group of fans. The rest of us need to bring them back to earth. The following is not personal:

I remember attending a MVC Conference tournament when the Salukis were riding high and the program expected to be in the NCAAs each year. I still remember the smugness of some fans (not all) as they snickered at my Purple and Orange jacket. Most entertaining was the SIU fan who told me I should be embarrassed for wearing an Evansville jacket. Luckily, several SIU fans quickly advised her my son was an Ace and she turned red and walked away. The lady was in her 50s and was a b-i-t-c-h. My point, I would love to see her now.

Reference the above quote:

1. Let UNI worry about how much money is going into their program.

2. I have been to Wichita--nice place to visit, but you would not want to ---- ------.

We need to play the conference schedule before crowning any team the

By the way, the Shockers are my second favorite Valley team. I live in Kansas and I like their fans.

[unipanther99]

So is there an assumption that UNI fans don't have higher goals for the program? I can assure you that is not the case.

I am very proud of what we accomplished last year, but there will always be a little part of me that thinks we had about as great of a shot at the Final Four as you could ask for after we got past Kansas. Shots just didn't fall against Michigan State.

I want our program to become the dominant basketball school in the state of Iowa. I want in-state kids to grow up dreaming of playing hoops for the Panthers instead of the Hawkeyes, Cyclones, and (sorry) Bulldogs.

I want final fours, seasons of sold out student tickets, endowed scholarships, and million dollar contracts for our coach. We aren't there yet, but we're a heck of a lot closer than we were before Greg McDermott arrived. And I see no reason to be anything but incredibly proud of what we have accomplished so far.

[RoyalShock]

Let's take a look at the league's recent history (past decade or so).

When the Valley began to emerge as a top-10 conference, SIU and CU had established themselves as flagship programs. Both were receiving very good fan support. The league reached it's zenith when WSU and BU - two historically good programs that are well-supported - joined the top of the conference in 2006. UNI also established themselves as a top-tier MVC team at that time. SIU enjoyed one more year of success (another Sweet 16), but it was obvious the MVC was falling. UNI took the reins, sans one year of the Bulldog, and the league has failed to put multiple teams in the dance since 2007.

I don't fault UNI for the league's demise. They deserve credit for their success. But you also can't deny that the league is not healthy when a school that can barely fill half their new 7000-seat arena after a Sweet 16 year, just dropped baseball and had concerns about dropping from D1 due to funding, is the flagship.

The league can be prominent with a UNI, DU, UE or InSU doing well. But it needs one or two of the schools with strong athletic departments and programs with good fan support (WSU, CU, BU, MSU, SIU, ISU) to carry the banner to be its strongest.

So major kudos to UNI for at least keeping the league afloat with their great year last year. But the conference is in trouble if they are to be the flagship. And as disappointing as the non-conf has been for the league, I fear next year may be worse since WSU, MSU, CU and UNI will lose significant contributors. The top third of the league, as a group, appears as though it will be even weaker next season.

WSU loses four of it's top six rebounders and two of it's top four scorers. (Durley, Hatch, Ellis, Blair)
CU loses Lawson, Runnels, Ashford and Korver.
MSU loses four of their top five scorers (Creekmore, Mallett, Leonard, Ricks)
UNI loses Kwadzo (#2 scorer, #1 assists), O'Rear (#1 rebounder) and Dunham.

WSU, CU and UNI should still carry the league, but I don't see any of them being much, if any, better next year unless their recruits have significant impact.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Royal, I may be the exception (although I think not), but I expect Creighton to be better next year. With the exception of Lawson, our younger players are already outplaying their more experienced brethren. Even if you include the seniors, Wragge (Soph.), Echenique (Soph.)and Doug McDermott (Fr.) are already some of our best players. Most importantly, PG Antoine Young will also be back for his senior year. Our wings are the weakest positions and those are the positions filled by seniors.

Remember, too, that every Jay is playing in a brand new system this year. A year of experience in McDermott's system should help both the offense and defense be more effective and smooth.

[RoyalShock]

And that's why I added "much". I suppose even WSU could be a little better if the non-seniors continue to improve and juco PF Carl Hall is able to provide the scoring of Durley and rebounding of Blair. By all accounts it looks like he can (averaging 18 points and 11 boards for a top 5 juco team), but he'll have to prove it. We'll really need Orukpe and our two redshirt freshman (PF Hamilton and SF/SG Richardson) to step up and provide quality depth to be better next year.

But I digress. This thread is about UNI.

[unipanther99]

I like what UNI has coming in next year. Obviously the seniors will be missed, but I think Coach Jake is building toward a situation where we can just reload every year instead of having to rebuild every few years. The system lends itself to that, when the focus is on team defense first and everything else 2nd.

Obviously if he were to leave anytime soon, all bets are off as to what happens long term.

[DoubleJayAlum]

As I understand it, MVC Tv contracts are up for renewal after this season. If the MVC struggles, will that mean fewer TV outlets? Does the conference championship get dumped by CBS? If TV appearances drop, what will be the impact on recruiting?

I can't help but wonder if the MVC's movement to stream all games like the Horizon might be a proactive step taken by the league because they expect a smaller TV presence.

I do agree with Royal that the league seems to be strongest both in talent and from a financial perspective when the teams with the largest fanbases are at the top. Since the league generates something like 80% of its operating capital from the MVC tournament, attendance at that tourney is a big deal. In 2007, the conference hit an all time high in tourney ticket sales and the Saturday sessions were sold out. It is probably no coincidence that four teams that have the largest fanbases and travel those fans among the best in the league (SIU, BU, MSU and CU) were the teams left playing on that day. Further, I believe the attendance at the championship game between SIU and CU was also a record. Note that 2007 was the last year the MVC put two teams in the NCAA tourney. Since then attendance has continued to drop as has the quality of the conference as a whole.

I think Doc's overall point about the viability of schools that aren't willing/able to commit to success financially is a legitimate one. We've already seen one head coach leave to become an assistant elsewhere because of finances (McKenna). I think scheduling is starting to show the strain of limited finances as well. Several schools have had stories written about them in the various media about their financial struggles. How long those schools can sustain things if the general financial environment doesn't turn around should be a concern for everyone.

[jayball]

WuDr and 99 -- I think all fans have wild dreams and aspirations. Final Fours...long term dominance...eternal glory. It is human nature to dream big. In my mind however, final fours are a pretty high bar to set for expectations. Should that prevent anyone from trying and striving for it? Of course not. George mason and Bulter proved it is possible but I guess it seems unreasonable to me to demand that from a school with far fewer resources than some of the "elite" programs. I don't think I'm being a softie, just realistic that it would take something pretty special for CU to get there. It isn't 1950 anymore, it not 1980 either. High level success,(ie S16s and repeat yearly trips to the dance) seem to come in cycles. Very few programs at schools our size maintain that sort of performance without interruption. We lose coaches, we have trouble scheduling quality opponents, we can't get big TV money, we don't have BCS football money to pay our bills. I guess I see most Valley schools as having the same overall challenges.

Dr....What sort of expectations do you want everyone to have? If you want to be the Memphis of the Valley, why do you care how much UNI and UE put into their athletic budgets? Just go out and beat the crap out of people right? I guess that is the hard part to understand.....If WSU is as good as you say then prove it on the court. If it can't dominate a conference as bad as you say the MVC is then what does that say? It seems to be slighly contradictory.

Royal -- Interesting thoughts. What would you consider a "healthy" conference? Is it mulitple bids? Is it size of fanbases? RPI? Is there a factor, or $ amount that you used to separate the MVC teams like you did? MVC as a whole has gone toward a downward cycle since 2006, but is it sign of the future or just a semi-normal cycle playing out? WSU changed coaches, SIU changed coaches twice, CU basically changed coaches twice (first to Pig Sooey Altman and then to McD), Bradely hasn't done anything before or since 2006, MSU changed coaches, ISUr changed and hasn't played anyone but ITT Tech since.

I see a couple of models/examples for nonBCS schools to achieve some degree of longer term success.
Gonzaga, Memphis, (and maybe Butler) model....win in neutral site tourneys and dominate your conference, win in March.
A10 model -- Xavier and Dayton as flagships and several solid teams with a kind of rotating cycle of contenders for additional at larges.
MWC model -- Is there a model there? Are they the 2006 MVC?

[WuDrWu]

I am heading to the Champions Club for dinner before the game, but see if somebody can answer a few of these questions:

1)How does the FSN money get divided?

2)Does anyone know about the ESPN games or the CBS game?

3)What about post season money. How does that get divided, if at all.

4)No offense intended, but did anyone watch the UE v UNC game? Wow, that was exciting. Who wants to watch that, outside of AceDad? And who wants to watch Drake v Evansville or even WSU v SIU if both WSU and SIU are terrible? Anyone? The answer is no. Those games do nothing for the league, yet we continue to do everything possible to make sure that every team gets on the air and try to keep the coverage as even as possible.

5)'99, I don't care if you and UNI fans have passion to see you team win and expectations. EVERY fan wants to see their team win. Wanting doesn't mean s***.....doing means s***. My yearly package to athletics is north of $20k. I don't want one penny that UNI deserves for it's run last year. And I don't want to share what we are responsible for generating with any program whose marginal fans "want to win in the worst way" and "expect" their team to win.

Creighton fans pour money into their program, WSU fans POUR money into their program and they both support the team home and away (WSU travels unbelievably well). Why should we allow the poor sisters of the south to get in line ahead of us?

Someone mentioned why if WSU is so good they don't win more. No doubt, and I have said this numerous times, WSU has underperformed at times, partly due to inflated expectations (based a lot on our own fans) and partly due to just stinking it up. This part of the discussion isn't about that.