Who wins in St. Louis

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Who wins in St. Louis

Poll ended at March 2nd, 2017, 8:28 pm

Wichita State
39
51%
Illinois State
16
21%
Northern Iowa
12
16%
Someone Else
10
13%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby uniftw » February 16th, 2017, 10:53 am

Stickboy46 wrote:Some KenPom numbers for perspective

UNI AdjO = 97.5 (286th), AdjD 95.4 (34th)
ISU AdjO = 106.7 (130th), AdjD 92.3 (13th)
WSU AdjO = 117.5 (17th), AdjD 93.4 (22nd)

Last Year:
UNI 108.5, 97.3
ISU 102.9, 98.2
WSU 110.2, 87.6

So You are correct, UNI Defense is good, though still a bit off of ISU and WSU. Offense is absolutely terrible. On average with 100 possessions, UNI would score 20 points less than WSU. UNI defense is slightly better than last year but over 10 points per 100 possessions worse on offense. WSU is actually drastically better than last year on offense and actually better on offense than the undefeated team (though slightly worse on defense. 93.4 vs 91.8).

It'swhere we miss the sharp shooters more than a guy like Wes. We are a terrible shooting team this year. A guy like Matty Bo of Pauly would make a world of difference on this team.

Spencer has as many threes this year as Matty Bo did as a freshman, so long term I think he'll be that guy moving foward, along with getting Wyatt back for two years. Offense is just ugly.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby sivert » February 16th, 2017, 10:55 am

Stickboy46 wrote:...
Some KenPom numbers for perspective

UNI AdjO = 97.5 (286th), AdjD 95.4 (34th)
...

We had some terrible games. Us UNI fans are hoping we're improved. And we're wondering how much and if it's enough to have a shot in StLouis.

Over the last 3 games, our Defensive Efficiency is 4th. https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-baske ... efficiency

I'm a UNI fan. So I'm hoping we've been working working working on defense, which has improved. And hopefully we'll get some better offense by StLouis. But I know our chances are low.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby Stickboy46 » February 16th, 2017, 11:07 am

sivert wrote:
Stickboy46 wrote:...
Some KenPom numbers for perspective

UNI AdjO = 97.5 (286th), AdjD 95.4 (34th)
...

We had some terrible games. Us UNI fans are hoping we're improved. And we're wondering how much and if it's enough to have a shot in StLouis.

Over the last 3 games, our Defensive Efficiency is 4th. https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-baske ... efficiency

I'm a UNI fan. So I'm hoping we've been working working working on defense, which has improved. And hopefully we'll get some better offense by StLouis. But I know our chances are low.

I don't think anyone is doubting that your defense has improved. Saying its 4th in the last 3 games is great and all BUT It's diminished a bit by the fact that the average RPI of those 3 games is 205. Average Kenpom is 180. Average KenPom AdjO of those 3 teams is 186.

Also if you use that same site you linked, you are ranked 312 in offensive efficiency the last 3 games. That's the part that will get you knocked out on Friday potentially.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby glm38 » February 16th, 2017, 11:18 am

Khan4Cats wrote:I voted for WSU because I think they have the total package. But being a one and done situation, anything can happen, it only takes one hot game from an underdog to take down one of the top two.

Here's my assessment:

1) WSU 51% to win it all. has both the athletes to get into an up and down game with anyone. They also have a depth and variety of impact players that can be mixed and matched as needed. An example: Nurger and Morris at the 5. Two different body types, two different style of games, both can compete at a high level and cause fits. Add to that Marshall coaching and instilling discipline that can frustrate the other teams that are built more for athleticism. The Shockers have all of the pieces. They can survive regardless of how officials are calling the game.

2) Illinois State. 20% chance. I put them here because they are a team that seems to ride on their athleticism and just out-ballin the opposition rather than running sets. I don't attribute much to coaching at all and I don't think they can overcome a bad stretch of things not going their way-which is highly possible in one-and-done situations. They have been successful this year because of their experience, but I think a team that can force them into a half-court game that requires high basketball IQ decisions in pressure situations can put them in a bind. Officials calling a tight game could also be a tripping point.

3) UNI. 15% chance. I will get ripped since they are nothing compared to WSU and ISUr, but I put them here because of the system and coach. UNI has NEVER been the most athletic team in the conference. They get by with their system which multiplies the sum of the parts beyond individuals. It starts with a defensive philosophy of limiting possessions and forcing teams to work. When UNI is really good is when their offense is also clicking with inside/out threats. Amazingly, that has been almost totally missing so far this year. We have been more successful lately getting the ball inside, but our outside shooting has been stagnant-if that heats up for a weekend, UNI will be a tough out. UNI is locked into either the 3 or 4 seed. Personally, I would prefer the 4 to give them the extra rest going into Saturday, but that assumes we can get out of Friday.

4) Missouri State. 5% I see them as very similar to Illinois State as a highly athletic team that just wants to ball. Their coach is their achilles heel and their youth compared to ISU is a separating factor. This is a team that could get hot for three days and have the ability knock off the big two on good given day. Still a 45~% chance they play Thursday.

5) Loyola and SIU. <5% Both these teams have good pieces, I just am not sure about the overall depth to get it done. They each have players that are capable of carrying their team for a couple of games, but will need help to make a run. Both are more likely to avoid Thursday than MSU, but I don't think have as great a chance to win 3 in 3.

7-8) Indiana State and Evansville. 3% These are potentially dangerous teams if they could somehow avoid Thursday. (Less than 3% chance of that for the Sycs, less than 20% for the Aces).

9) Bradley. <1% Wardle is building this team in the shape of Wichita. He is getting them to play hard on defense, he is getting some athletes in, they just need experience. I don't see them as a Thursday team next year and they will be just getting better if the coach can keep them together. Very slim chance to

10) Drake. 0% Yeah, they could win a game on Thursday, but that is it this year.


I think this is a pretty good assessment. But I would change it just a bit:

WSU 45% chance to win St. Louis. Shockers are the best team. Would be higher except for their history at arch madness
ISUr 40% chance. McIntosh played last night and he looked pretty good. That's huge. Best starting 5.
UNI 10% chance. Significantly less talent but with Jake as their coach always a chance.
All other MVC teams combined 5% chance. Really less than 1% for the other 7 (per team) combined. MSU might win a game or 2 because we do have superior talent (outside of wsu and ISUr ) but no way a Lusk coached team wins 3 in a row at the arch.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby Redhawk » February 16th, 2017, 11:34 am

Redbirds4Life wrote:
They scored 2 points in the final 2 and a half minutes and your leader missed the front end of a 1 and 1 in a huge spot...not sure that constitutes as responding to adversity.


They responded to adversity by overcoming an 8 point second half deficit against a hot shooting team
and made two great plays in the last 2:34 (both layups by Hawkins) that gave them a 6 point
advantage which they were able to ride out.

Yes they missed the front end of two 1-1's in the last minute but that fact doesn't turn the prior 39 minutes into "one of the worst games of the year."
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby Wufan » February 16th, 2017, 12:11 pm

glm38 wrote:
Khan4Cats wrote:I voted for WSU because I think they have the total package. But being a one and done situation, anything can happen, it only takes one hot game from an underdog to take down one of the top two.

Here's my assessment:

1) WSU 51% to win it all. has both the athletes to get into an up and down game with anyone. They also have a depth and variety of impact players that can be mixed and matched as needed. An example: Nurger and Morris at the 5. Two different body types, two different style of games, both can compete at a high level and cause fits. Add to that Marshall coaching and instilling discipline that can frustrate the other teams that are built more for athleticism. The Shockers have all of the pieces. They can survive regardless of how officials are calling the game.

2) Illinois State. 20% chance. I put them here because they are a team that seems to ride on their athleticism and just out-ballin the opposition rather than running sets. I don't attribute much to coaching at all and I don't think they can overcome a bad stretch of things not going their way-which is highly possible in one-and-done situations. They have been successful this year because of their experience, but I think a team that can force them into a half-court game that requires high basketball IQ decisions in pressure situations can put them in a bind. Officials calling a tight game could also be a tripping point.

3) UNI. 15% chance. I will get ripped since they are nothing compared to WSU and ISUr, but I put them here because of the system and coach. UNI has NEVER been the most athletic team in the conference. They get by with their system which multiplies the sum of the parts beyond individuals. It starts with a defensive philosophy of limiting possessions and forcing teams to work. When UNI is really good is when their offense is also clicking with inside/out threats. Amazingly, that has been almost totally missing so far this year. We have been more successful lately getting the ball inside, but our outside shooting has been stagnant-if that heats up for a weekend, UNI will be a tough out. UNI is locked into either the 3 or 4 seed. Personally, I would prefer the 4 to give them the extra rest going into Saturday, but that assumes we can get out of Friday.

4) Missouri State. 5% I see them as very similar to Illinois State as a highly athletic team that just wants to ball. Their coach is their achilles heel and their youth compared to ISU is a separating factor. This is a team that could get hot for three days and have the ability knock off the big two on good given day. Still a 45~% chance they play Thursday.

5) Loyola and SIU. <5% Both these teams have good pieces, I just am not sure about the overall depth to get it done. They each have players that are capable of carrying their team for a couple of games, but will need help to make a run. Both are more likely to avoid Thursday than MSU, but I don't think have as great a chance to win 3 in 3.

7-8) Indiana State and Evansville. 3% These are potentially dangerous teams if they could somehow avoid Thursday. (Less than 3% chance of that for the Sycs, less than 20% for the Aces).

9) Bradley. <1% Wardle is building this team in the shape of Wichita. He is getting them to play hard on defense, he is getting some athletes in, they just need experience. I don't see them as a Thursday team next year and they will be just getting better if the coach can keep them together. Very slim chance to

10) Drake. 0% Yeah, they could win a game on Thursday, but that is it this year.


I think this is a pretty good assessment. But I would change it just a bit:

WSU 45% chance to win St. Louis. Shockers are the best team. Would be higher except for their history at arch madness
ISUr 40% chance. McIntosh played last night and he looked pretty good. That's huge. Best starting 5.
UNI 10% chance. Significantly less talent but with Jake as their coach always a chance.
All other MVC teams combined 5% chance. Really less than 1% for the other 7 (per team) combined. MSU might win a game or 2 because we do have superior talent (outside of wsu and ISUr ) but no way a Lusk coached team wins 3 in a row at the arch.


Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby SubGod22 » February 16th, 2017, 12:17 pm

Wufan wrote:
Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.


Lee/Shamet really is tough. I'm biased and take Shamet's overall game
Wills/Frankamp would have been tougher a few weeks back, but Frankamp seems to have turned the corner and taken the next step. I'm going with CF
McIntosh/Brown...I love Brown and his D is much better, but McIntosh brings so much else he gets the nod.
Hawkins/McDuffie is a good matchup that I'm sure could go either way, but I'm giving the nod to Duff. I think he brings a little more versatility all around.
Fayne/Morris I'm taking Morris and not thinking twice about it.

Again, I'm biased but that's my take. I have no problem with others taking Lee over Shamet or Hawkins over Duff. Maybe I'm underselling Wills.
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby BirdsEyeView » February 16th, 2017, 12:38 pm

SubGod22 wrote:
Wufan wrote:
Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.


Lee/Shamet really is tough. I'm biased and take Shamet's overall game
Wills/Frankamp would have been tougher a few weeks back, but Frankamp seems to have turned the corner and taken the next step. I'm going with CF
McIntosh/Brown...I love Brown and his D is much better, but McIntosh brings so much else he gets the nod.
Hawkins/McDuffie is a good matchup that I'm sure could go either way, but I'm giving the nod to Duff. I think he brings a little more versatility all around.
Fayne/Morris I'm taking Morris and not thinking twice about it.

Again, I'm biased but that's my take. I have no problem with others taking Lee over Shamet or Hawkins over Duff. Maybe I'm underselling Wills.


Hard to disagree right now. Ever since Morris/Frankamp picked it up after your loss to ISUr, you guys have been unbelievably good.

Only thing a few things I would say...Wills is a FAR SUPERIOR defender than Frankamp. The opposite can be said about the offensive end. I would say they are a wash because of this.

Hawkins and McDuffie are very close.
Ditto for Lee and Shamet (although leadership wise....edge to Lee)
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby Cdizzle » February 16th, 2017, 12:45 pm

BirdsEyeView wrote:(although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Not disputing this, just curious why you feel this way?
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Re: Who wins in St. Louis

Postby BirdsEyeView » February 16th, 2017, 12:50 pm

Cdizzle wrote:
BirdsEyeView wrote:(although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Not disputing this, just curious why you feel this way?


Here is an example (from the Pantagraph article after last night's win):

"We had to keep our composure," said Hawkins of trailing by eight with 14 minutes left. "Paris (Lee) gave us a little speech and told us we weren't playing like ourselves. I said a couple words. We just had to keep our head.


It seems every game Lee is encouraging, motivating, willing the team along....especially when we struggle (which has been often lately).
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