Conference Realignment - May 1

[uniftw]

[Best case scenario in my mind would be to move football into the MAC while basketball stays in the MVC. After Temple, I don't think the MAC will ever do that again though.

They're already doing that again with UMass.

UMASS might not last....they were slightly completely tied into Temple being there. They can now leave the MAC for just 500k, rather than multiple millions of dollars. UMASS could end up going many different directions in 2 years if the MAC set up isn't right for them.

[glm38]

I'd be interested to know what the revenue discrepancy is between a top of the mark basketball program (like Kansas, Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky) and similar high stature programs in BCS football. Comparing football to basketball I mean. Is it a huge difference? Just curious as I'm really not that big of a college football fan.

Huge might be an understatement.

For the 2009-2010 school year, Texas had the most profitable football team with revenues of $68,830,484. On the other hand, Louisville had the most profitable basketball team with revenues of $16,800,234.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011 ... t-profits/

That's pretty eye opening. Thanks.

[TheAsianSensation]

[Best case scenario in my mind would be to move football into the MAC while basketball stays in the MVC. After Temple, I don't think the MAC will ever do that again though.

They're already doing that again with UMass.

UMASS might not last....they were slightly completely tied into Temple being there. They can now leave the MAC for just 500k, rather than multiple millions of dollars. UMASS could end up going many different directions in 2 years if the MAC set up isn't right for them.

I think UMass wants to clock a couple of years in FBS (via the MAC) to play itself into Big East contention eventually.

[DoubleJayAlum]

[Best case scenario in my mind would be to move football into the MAC while basketball stays in the MVC. After Temple, I don't think the MAC will ever do that again though.

They're already doing that again with UMass.

UMASS might not last....they were slightly completely tied into Temple being there. They can now leave the MAC for just 500k, rather than multiple millions of dollars. UMASS could end up going many different directions in 2 years if the MAC set up isn't right for them.

The expectation is that UMass will use a little time to get its football team up to the BCS level and then make a jump to a better league (CUSA or possibly Big East). Such a move would cause them to leave the A10 as well, presenting another opening in that will need to be replaced in that league...

[DoubleJayAlum]

Now, if you are talking about one of the few basketball only leagues like the A10, fine. But I still don't understand what the point would be of moving from one mid-major conference (at least a good one like the MVC) to another mid-major conference just for MBB. Unless you are going to get an offer from a BCS type league, which isn't happening (and it is 100% not happening for non-football schools), its just silly. Sure, maybe A10 looks like the better basketball conference right now. But will it be that way in the future? Who knows. Its certainly not worth moving your entire athletic department to a mostly east coast based league just for some perceived better competition in MBB for the time being, at least in my view.

I'll try to explain it to you, but I don't think you are going to like the answer....

Instead of being saddled with tons of broke teams that have warned the rest of the league that future investment may be limited and the need to limit expenses is great, the A10 has situated itself as the premier midmajor conference for hoops. They are passionate about expanding the conference to take advantage of opportunities as they are presented. Their votes on conference wide decisions aren't based only on the economic impact (i.e., the fear that adding a school may result in greater travel costs).

The A10 routinely garners many more at large bids to the NCAA tourney, thereby automatically increasing a chance's team of making the tourney simply by joining (the A10 didn't just come off of an approximate 5 year period in which they were a single bid league like the MVC). Further, a large number of the conference's members are in big metropolitan areas, meaning they are both better situated to getting quality TV deals, and have more fertile recruiting opportunities within the conference's footprint. The A10 has their own media deals with both ESPN and the new CBS Sports network, in which the conference actually gets paid instead of paying to buy the time like the MVC does.

One league has positioned itself as a dynamic, fluid group doing everything it can to improve its standing and create additional NCAA tournament opportunities for its members. The other league looks to be anything but dynamic and is shrinking in both national perception and financial status.

I hope that helps you understand. If it doesn't, well you don't really need to worry about it anyway as UNI won't be in position to have to worry about making such a decision.

EDIT- What it really comes down to is situating yourself for the future. Is future stability worth more than the temporary inconvenience a change in conference would make? Butler thought so. So did VCU. And Utah St. All of those teams went from one mid major to another because they felt it gave them a more solid future.

[havoc]

Further, a large number of the conference's members are in big metropolitan areas, meaning they are both better situated to getting quality TV deals, and have more fertile recruiting opportunities within the conference's footprint.

Sure, the A10 has schools in Pittsburgh, the Bronx, Washington DC, and Philadelphia, among others, but how far down are the teams on the sports scene in those cities? How much does having NYC in the conference matter from a media standpoint when Rose Hill Gymnasium only holds 3,470 people?

The average home game in the A10 last year drew 5,475 people, in the MVC, it was 6,895. SIU had by far the worst attendance last year in the MVC. They still outdrew 4 A10 members.

The average stadium in the new A10, holds 7,437 people, in the MVC, it is 10,384.

[valleychamp]

Meaningless, baseless, predictably trollish UNI barb aside...

I'll ask you this again, because I have asked you before and you have give a direct answer. How exactly has any single (perceived) financial issue at any single institution negatively impacted your beloved BlueJays? Creighton can spend as much as they want to spend. They can go play anyone that they want to play. They can recruit whomever they want to recruit. We all know that you are the foremost authority on everybody else's athletic departments, but despite that fact, you have yet to provide any evidence as to how all of the pathetic little 'ol poor schools in the MVC that simply cannot measure up to Creighton's greatness have damaged the reputation of, nor restricted the bluejays from achieving success in any way.

You think its going to be that significantly easier to get the NCAA MBB tournament by being in the A10? Because last I checked Creighton hasn't had much trouble finding its way into the NCAA tournament out of the MVC. What's Creighton been in like 5-6 times the last 10 years? You really think that number is going to grow significantly enough in the A10? You could even make the argument that Creighton could have fewer NCAA appearances out of that conference because of some ramped up competition.

And EVEN IF you are correct that A10 membership would yield more MBB tournament appearances is a couple more MBB tournament berths worth moving all your other sports to that conference as well? Those costs would have to be offset at some point. Your looking at a ton more in travel costs and flights alone, for sports such as volleyball, softball, soccer, ect.

Look at it this way, in the MVC (which offers pretty fantastic geography compared to other conferences, btw) Creighton is the furthest Western school. In the A10, SLU is the furthest Western school by a LOT, almost ridiculously so. And Creighton is like a 7 hour drive from Saint Louis!! Take a gander at this A10 conference map for visual reference.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Sure, the A10 has schools in Pittsburgh, the Bronx, Washington DC, and Philadelphia, among others, but how far down are the teams on the sports scene in those cities? How much does having NYC in the conference matter from a media standpoint when Rose Hill Gymnasium only holds 3,470 people.

I can summarize the argument really clearly with one fact - the A10 has a better TV contract than the MVC. The A10 schools actually generate real revenue from the conference's TV contract where the MVC, with a few exceptions basically has to BUY ITS OWN TIME on Fox Sports/Comcast. A team can be a smaller player in the market, but yet the TV network still greatly covets that market.

I also notice in your little example that you forgot about cities like Dayton and Cincinnati, where fan interest is very high. Add to that another team now in Indianapolis and Richmond.

[havoc]

I can summarize the argument really clearly with one fact - the A10 has a better TV contract than the MVC. The A10 schools actually generate real revenue from the conference's TV contract where the MVC, with a few exceptions basically has to BUY ITS OWN TIME on Fox Sports/Comcast. A team can be a smaller player in the market, but yet the TV network still greatly covets that market.

I also notice in your little example that you forgot about cities like Dayton and Cincinnati, where fan interest is very high. Add to that another team now in Indianapolis and Richmond.

I said among others. You said a large number of the schools were in big metropolitan areas. I didn't realize 4/12 was a large number. Also, I wouldn't exactly say interest is high for Butler basketball in Indianapolis. I wouldn't call 6,600 in a 10,000 seat arena great, even in a down year for the program. Maybe a jump to the A10 will change that.

Would you trade Illinois State for Chicago State to gain the Chicago media market? How about Indiana State for IUPUI to gain Indianapolis?

[DoubleJayAlum]

You think its going to be that significantly easier to get the NCAA MBB tournament by being in the A10? Because last I checked Creighton hasn't had much trouble finding its way into the NCAA tournament out of the MVC. What's Creighton been in like 5-6 times the last 10 years? You really think that number is going to grow significantly enough in the A10? You could even make the argument that Creighton could have fewer NCAA appearances out of that conference because of some ramped up competition.

Here is where your argument fails you - you continually look past recent data and instead rely on older data to support your arguments about the state of the conference and its history. Times are significantly different now. Getting into the NCAA tournament is much harder coming out of the MVC now than it was even as recently as six years ago. This past season was the first time that the Mvc got more than a single bid in the last five years. MSU missed out on an autobid even after winning a conference title.

The problem with the MVC as it currently sits is that you do not get much of an opportunity for top 50 RPI wins within the conference. That wasn't true as recently as six years ago, when we got several bids. And, pay attention now because this answers another one of your questions, many of our schools can't either afford to schedule in a way that allows for a better RPI or don't want to spend the extra money that it takes to do so. They don't want to have to travel far to away games (meaning they will pass up quality match-ups just to save money) and they book home games against D2 or even D3 programs just so that they can make some revenue from playing at home. The net result is that schedule strength will continue to be weak going forward, perhaps even trending further downward, meaning that teams get next to no benefit to their NCAA resume by playing conference foes. On top of that, you get a stain on your resume when you eventually lose a game or two in conference.

If you were WSU or Creighton last year, the only in conference game that you could possibly book as a top 50 win on your NCAA tourney resume was a game against the other. That's it. On top of that only one other team even provided a top 100 win - UNI. That's it. That essentially means that your postseason is either made during the noncon only to be put in jeopardy by what happens in conference, or it is essentially over after the noncon unless you win in St Louis. Because of the bad in conference RPIs, you have no chance whatsoever of redemption from a mediocre or average noncon by winning games within your conference like you do in other midmajor conferences.

The MVC continues to get weaker while many of our prior peers pass us by. The A10 is at the top of the heap, but even conferences like the WCC have passed us by with the growth of the program at St Mary's plus the addition of BYU. The Mountain West covered for the loss of BYU by adding solid programs as well and remains a multi-bid league. A weaker MVC combined with stronger mid major leagues elsewhere means that the MVC will have a significantly harder time getting multiple NCAA bids going forward (and in the rare instance where they may get them, the seeds won't be the greatest).