Loyola Leaving for A-10

[Salukimadness86]

The MVC will be fine. It's the second oldest conference behind the BIG 10 plus 4. Over the years the MVC has lost programs such as Oklahoma State, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa, and most recently WSU and Creighton. New commissioner is in place, and hopefully has the forethought/ideas to take this conference to the next level.

[E-Villan]

The MVC will be fine. It's the second oldest conference behind the BIG 10 plus 4. Over the years the MVC has lost programs such as Oklahoma State, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa, and most recently WSU and Creighton. New commissioner is in place, and hopefully has the forethought/ideas to take this conference to the next level.

I agree. In the era of constant conference shuffling, we have only had 3 programs leave in the last 27 years. The AAC, Conf USA and the OVC have lost more than that in just the last 6 months.

If you look at it as just a Loyola-Belmont swap, I would say it is a wash at worst. Actually, Belmont is coming into the league as a much stronger program than Loyola was at the time they joined.

[VUGrad1314]

Todd Golden absolutely nails it here. This is a must read. If we want markets we can accomplish that goal with better programs than the ones that are rumored (Also Murray State is a must for the on court value).


https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aa ... f3454.html

[Rambler63]

This argument that "Well, Loyola worked out wonderfully so let's just try that again because it just might work" argument is ridiculous. We are so very fortunate as a league that Loyola worked out the way they did but it doesn't mean that any big market team we add is going to be another Loyola and if they aren't then we're stuck with a huge anchor dragging down the league--worse yet, it's an anchor on a geographic island that we all have to fly to instead of one we can easily bus to in our footprint. I know Valpo has sucked and not performed as expected so I shouldn't be throwing stones and complaining about adding anchors while we've been nothing but an anchor weighing down the conference so far but there's a difference between rolling the dice on a team that has shown a pulse before and might well be good again (Loyola Valpo Milwaukee) and hoping we can make magic happen with a team that has done nothing for its entire history like Arlington or Kansas City. The former have shown that they're the right coach away from doing amazing things the latter have shown literally nothing to suggest they could do anything. Money and market isn't everything. As I recall Bradley spends more money than any school outside of Loyola in this conference and they haven't won a tournament game since like 2006 or 2007. CUSA went after a bunch of market schools and it almost destroyed their league (the AAC has followed suit on the same mistake) The Horizon League has presence in so many markets but hasn't had an at large nor have they won a tournament game since Butler left. Unfortunately, many HL teams are among the best possible candidates for us to move forward but we need to be smart about who we add. Northern Kentucky is a terrific compromise between those of us who want to see good winning programs and those who want markets. And if we're going to roll the dice on a program hoping they'll be good I'd much rather it be a program like Milwaukee who has at least shown that they can do it before instead of a complete unknown like Arlington. UIC's overall institutional profile is too good to ignore and adding a Chicago presence again would be important to student recruitment for so many MVC schools plus we can simply bus to them. They are a better add than Arlington (who has a similar academic profile albeit not as good) for this reason alone. Unless we're talking about adding a no brainer program like New Mexico State (not happening) let's try to stay geographically sensible here. I'm not against adding markets full stop we just have to be smart about which market teams we add. Just because Loyola worked doesn't mean they all will and that kind of thinking is the first and surest step towards cratering this league into permanent one bid status.

I hope everyone would acknowledge that Loyola was not added solely because of its market. At the time of its addition, Loyola was something like the 3rd-highest men's basketball budget and about twice the budget of Indiana State and Illinois State-- before their promise to increase spending. Loyola's endowment was the highest in the league, its US News ranking was highest, it had a national championship, historic contributions to college sports integration (the first major college team to field five Black players), increasing enrollment, and a familiar name. Loyola (like Illinois State and Indiana State) had a #1 overall NBA Draft pick, plus several other NBA picks. Loyola also had a brand new renovated facility (although too small for the tastes of most MVC fans), and solid programs in softball, women's soccer, and men's soccer.

Of course we're looking primarily at men's basketball performance on the court as a condition for membership, but Loyola's promise to spend and invest and improve was backed by a history, tradition, and academic profile that carried weight.

The market? Other than the fact that so many MVC grads live and work in Chicago, it probably wasn't that much of a factor, but it was a potential benefit if Loyola was successful.

[BCPanther]

Todd Golden absolutely nails it here. This is a must read. If we want markets we can accomplish that goal with better programs than the ones that are rumored (Also Murray State is a must for the on court value).


https://www.tribstar.com/sports/todd-aa ... f3454.html

It's well written but his premise is wrong. He's got his public university glasses on.

The minute we acknowledge that smaller, non-traditional private schools are in serious trouble going forward the more we're going to understand this.

Bradley, Drake and Evansville 10 years ago brought in approximately 1200 students per freshman class, that number has fallen below 1000 at Bradley and Evansville and just squeaks above it at Drake. With what their tuition numbers look like, that's 8 figures lost per freshman class. If they can each pick off 3 or 4 kids from the Metroplex and another 1 or 2 from Kansas City that they wouldn't normally get, it literally means a couple million dollars for their bottom lines. Also, Drake received over 600 applications from the Metroplex last year, the more apps they get the more chances they have to attract students. I don't have the numbers for Bradley and Evansville.

Milwaukee is now 50 years into steady population losses with shrinking high school classes. Cincinnati is served by 14 different Ohio based public universities with a total of 24 campuses, including 4 in Cincinnati itself. There probably isn't much market expansion to grab there plus it's a stagnant population area with shrinking high school classes.

Murray is the basketball play. Arlington is the bone to help the general university finances for everybody, especially the privates. I'll listen to arguments about Kansas City but there are a ton of UNI, Drake and Missouri State alumni there and Johnson County Kansas is growing at a very rapid clip. Assuming the Valley gets what they want (long term lease with Municipal Auditorium, expansion of budget and renovation of the Swinney Center) they make sense.

I can't imagine that UIC isn't coming too so that we stay in Chicago. I think Loyola leaving happened a little quicker than they anticipated so they just need to cross t's and dot lower case j's on UIC. Gives us a nice round 14.

It's so easy to get into our 'Athletics Bubble' that we forget these universities have to survive and grow. Outside of a couple in our league, that's not happening. Two of these additions should really help with that.

[RacerJoeD]

I don’t discount all that, but as an athletic coalition, the quality of the athletics has to be first and foremost. That is how people become aware of your school. Playing games in a city isn’t enough. You have to be a draw.

[unipanther99]

It still amazes me that Doug Elgin and others came to Cedar Falls, watched a basketball game in the UNI-Dome and said, yep... This is a team we want. Granted, we had just been to the NCAA tournament (for the first time) and had some good crowds, but to say we fit in with the other Valley peers at the time was kind of a wild stretch.

[BCPanther]

I don’t discount all that, but as an athletic coalition, the quality of the athletics has to be first and foremost. That is how people become aware of your school. Playing games in a city isn’t enough. You have to be a draw.

I'm not sure Loyola is even a draw. They play in a 4000 seat building that they don't consistently fill and if you took out their students it would be damn near empty most of the time.

[VUGrad1314]

Take it from us as Valpo fans: We played in a league with presence in multiple top 115 markets (Chicago Milwaukee Green Bay Detroit Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Youngstown) and gave all of that up to join with schools in Peoria Carbondale Des Moines Cedar Falls Springfield Evansville Terre Haute and Bloomington\Normal. I can assure you that we did not do this to get into markets. We did it because we were tired of playing in empty gyms with schools with largely apathetic fanbases and wanted the challenge of better athletic brands. The move to the MVC was all about athletics for Valpo. I don't want to see the MVC make the same mistake of the Horizon League and add total afterthoughts in big markets with apathetic fanbases that could drag down the league. If KC and Arlington don't hit (which is a distinct possibility especially with KC) we run the risk of becoming a 14 team one bid league which is really not ideal. We need to consider Golden's premise that we can get into bigger markets while still serving our goals of being a multibid league. If Arlington shows impressive commitment I can come around on them but we need NKU its program success and attendance (near 4000). It's the best balance of basketball success and market size available to us. Wright State is too if they get their financial house in order and I am very intrigued by Bellarmine and St Thomas (I'm pretty sure those metros are growing too especially Louisville but I'm not positive). I would take UIC absolutely at this point because of the value of Chicago and they absolutely ooze potential (much like Arlington I will concede) but I find Chicago to be a more important market than Dallas if it's an either or choice. I really don't want to see us go after too many market adds with little proven ability in basketball. I don't think that's the way forward for this league.

[Campbellproud]

Take it from us as Valpo fans: We played in a league with presence in multiple top 115 markets (Chicago Milwaukee Green Bay Detroit Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Youngstown) and gave all of that up to join with schools in Peoria Carbondale Des Moines Cedar Falls Springfield Evansville Terre Haute and Bloomington\Normal. I can assure you that we did not do this to get into markets. We did it because we were tired of playing in empty gyms with schools with largely apathetic fanbases and wanted the challenge of better athletic brands. The move to the MVC was all about athletics for Valpo. I don't want to see the MVC make the same mistake of the Horizon League and add total afterthoughts in big markets with apathetic fanbases that could drag down the league. If KC and Arlington don't hit (which is a distinct possibility especially with KC) we run the risk of becoming a 14 team one bid league which is really not ideal. We need to consider Golden's premise that we can get into bigger markets while still serving our goals of being a multibid league. If Arlington shows impressive commitment I can come around on them but we need NKU its program success and attendance (near 4000). It's the best balance of basketball success and market size available to us. Wright State is too if they get their financial house in order and I am very intrigued by Bellarmine and St Thomas (I'm pretty sure those metros are growing too especially Louisville but I'm not positive). I would take UIC absolutely at this point because of the value of Chicago and they absolutely ooze potential (much like Arlington I will concede) but I find Chicago to be a more important market than Dallas if it's an either or choice. I really don't want to see us go after too many market adds with little proven ability in basketball. I don't think that's the way forward for this league.

No offense, but Valpo isn’t living up to their end of the bargain and is a drag on the league. We can’t risk that again if we have no way of kicking teams out. We are better off staying pat right now and working on improving what we have than adding anymore anchors.