Wichita State at Illinois State on Sunday 7pm

[BirdmanBB]

Just to be clear, Jackie Carmichael rebounds like that half the time.

I'd like to see a photo of Carmichael with his foot up like that in a rebound attempt.

Ever.

In his entire career.

Show me one. The one on the ISU message board isn't even at half that angle. Show me a picture where his leg is extended 80 degrees in front of him even once in his career other than last night, let alone "half the time."

You're Joking right? I know each side of this has selective viewing on this, but lets look at the entire body of work of Jackie Carmichael and decide if he is a dirty player or not. I can understand if WSU fans felt this way if this was a constant issue with Carmichael, however, it is not. Have you ever heard him talk or interviewed? Probably not. I highly doubt anyone who looked at his entire body of work up to this point and actually looked at the person would think he is a dirty player.

I am going to chalk this up as a freak incident that he no doubt should have been called for on the spot, but in no way was it intentional or a dirty play. You are giving Carmichael way too much credit to orchestrate that. He did not kick him in the face....it was in the chest. Watch the replay.

I was definitely wrong before on the actual reviewing of the no call, so I apologize for that, but WSU fans can not deny that poor officiating helped them win the game when they put the wrong player at the line. It's over and done. ISU fans being upset and throwing things is embarrassing, but so are the actions of Marshall, his staff and the WSU players.

I know I am an ISU fan, but after this, I cant imagine any team wanting to face us after this game especially WSU. To be honest, this win wouldn't have done anything for us in regards to an at-large. We know that we need to win in St. Louis to go dancing. It will be interesting to see how the redbirds respond to a loss like this. This is the type of game that can change a season. I see the redbirds either collapsing or coming back as an even better team for having gone through this. In fact, I think this is the exact bulletin board material the redbirds need to push them through the MVC tourney. Very biased yes, but after this game, I wouldn't want to be playing ISU down the stretch and if I were WSU I definitely would not want to see the redbirds in the valley tourney.

[horacepinker]

Just to be clear, Jackie Carmichael rebounds like that half the time.

I'd like to see a photo of Carmichael with his foot up like that in a rebound attempt.

Ever.

In his entire career.

Show me one. The one on the ISU message board isn't even at half that angle. Show me a picture where his leg is extended 80 degrees in front of him even once in his career other than last night, let alone "half the time."

You're Joking right? I know each side of this has selective viewing on this, but lets look at the entire body of work of Jackie Carmichael and decide if he is a dirty player or not. I can understand if WSU fans felt this way if this was a constant issue with Carmichael, however, it is not. Have you ever heard him talk or interviewed? Probably not. I highly doubt anyone who looked at his entire body of work up to this point and actually looked at the person would think he is a dirty player.

I am going to chalk this up as a freak incident that he no doubt should have been called for on the spot, but in no way was it intentional or a dirty play. You are giving Carmichael way too much credit to orchestrate that. He did not kick him in the face....it was in the chest. Watch the replay.

I was definitely wrong before on the actual reviewing of the no call, so I apologize for that, but WSU fans can not deny that poor officiating helped them win the game when they put the wrong player at the line. It's over and done. ISU fans being upset and throwing things is embarrassing, but so are the actions of Marshall, his staff and the WSU players.

I know I am an ISU fan, but after this, I cant imagine any team wanting to face us after this game especially WSU. To be honest, this win wouldn't have done anything for us in regards to an at-large. We know that we need to win in St. Louis to go dancing. It will be interesting to see how the redbirds respond to a loss like this. This is the type of game that can change a season. I see the redbirds either collapsing or coming back as an even better team for having gone through this. In fact, I think this is the exact bulletin board material the redbirds need to push them through the MVC tourney. Very biased yes, but after this game, I wouldn't want to be playing ISU down the stretch and if I were WSU I definitely would not want to see the redbirds in the valley tourney.

Yea I'm sure the Shocks are scared to play the Cobra Kais again. They will probably wear headgear!

[Snaggletooth]

You can keep telling yourself that - but isu is what their record says they are. Wsu scored 8 pts in 40 seconds because isu crapped their pants. They didnt guard, they couldnt even dribble. Wsu hung 48 on them that half on the road. I'm not afraid of isu thuggery - I also suspect isu is on everybody radar now and will be watching out for it.

[CBB_Fan]

Comparing CU to WSU, In the last 15 years-

Conference Titles CU-3 WSU-2
Tournament Titles CU-7 WSU-0
Current Avg. Attendance- CU-17,000 WSU-10,500
NCAA Appearances- CU-8 WSU-2
NBA players produced- CU-3 WSU-0

The argument, well really its not even an argument. The only other team that compares to CU is SIU (if were talking as of recent history).

Comparing CU to WSU, In the last 15 years-

Conference Titles CU-3 WSU-2
Tournament Titles CU-7 WSU-0
Current Avg. Attendance- CU-17,000 WSU-10,500
NCAA Appearances- CU-8 WSU-2
NBA players produced- CU-3 WSU-0

The argument, well really its not even an argument. The only other team that compares to CU is SIU (if were talking as of recent history).

All you've done is select an arbitrary time period where it looks like Wichita State is worse (though your attendance numbers are current, just to be misleading).

It is no secret that Wichita State went through a down period in the 90s, and through two down periods during the early rebuilding years of Turgeon and Marshall. The thing is, even under such a deliberately placed time period, you still don't have CU at much of an advantage. Wichita State actually had MORE at-large appearances over that time period, and nearly as many NCAA wins in a quarter the appearances.

The NBA stat is just a little misleading as well, along with the attendance stat (Wichita State makes more money from its 10,000 seats than Creighton does from its 18,000).

But in the end, Wichita State is still close to Creighton, despite the time period being perhaps Creighton's best 15 year span and Wichita State's worst.

[jwa123]

[quote="Snaggletooth"]You can keep telling yourself that - but isu is what their record says they are. Wsu scored 8 pts in 40 seconds because isu crapped their pants. They didnt guard, they couldnt even dribble. Wsu hung 48 on them that half on the road. I'm not afraid of isu thuggery - I also suspect isu is on everybody radar now and will be watching out for it.[/quote]


Oh please, get over yourself.

[Snaggletooth]

Oh please, get over yourself.

take your own advice

[Deanthonybowdenfan]

Dont kid yourself CBB. I could of selected the last 10 years, or 20, or 50, or all time! Nomatter what time frame i choose Wichita is not on the same level, except for this year only. Since you think the last 15 years doesnt go back far enough, how bout i do ALL TIME.
ALL TIME Valley Records- Creighton- .589 winning% = #1 in conference
WSU- .509 winning% = #6 in conference
Not only does Creighton have a better all time conference record, but Illinois State, Bradley, Missouri State, and SIU all do also. So u should be glad i chose the last 15 years, cause when looking at the teams for the whole scope, like you wanted me to, guess what, Wichita State is in the bottom half of the league. Again this argument isnt even close. SIU , Illinois State would have a better argument that compares to Creighton then yall do.

[shoxrox]

This year only? I guess somebody has completely wiped last year out of their memory.

Check the Valley standings over the last 5 or 10 years. You'd be surprised at how many times WSU has finished ahead of Creighton at the end of the day.

Not to mention that WSU has now won 4 out of the last 5 meetings with the BJ's.

Oh ya, CU is on a completely different level.

This guy's giving Casey a run for his money.

[rlh04d]

Dont kid yourself CBB. I could of selected the last 10 years, or 20, or 50, or all time! Nomatter what time frame i choose Wichita is not on the same level, except for this year only. Since you think the last 15 years doesnt go back far enough, how bout i do ALL TIME.
ALL TIME Valley Records- Creighton- .589 winning% = #1 in conference
WSU- .509 winning% = #6 in conference
Not only does Creighton have a better all time conference record, but Illinois State, Bradley, Missouri State, and SIU all do also. So u should be glad i chose the last 15 years, cause when looking at the teams for the whole scope, like you wanted me to, guess what, Wichita State is in the bottom half of the league. Again this argument isnt even close. SIU , Illinois State would have a better argument that compares to Creighton then yall do.

Creighton, of course, has multiple Elite 8 appearances in the NCAA tournament? And a 3rd place finish? WSU's best teams didn't even get to play in the postseason thanks to discipline.

My favorite stat of the "last 15 years" thing: NCAA appearances, Creighton 8, WSU 2. NCAA wins, Creighton 3, WSU 2. WSU's 2006 season was better than any Creighton season since 1974! Creighton hasn't advanced to the third round of either the NCAA or NIT tournaments since then. WSU has had significantly more success both in their NCAA bids and in their NIT bids than Creighton has.

Wichita State's all time win % in NCAA/NIT tournaments: 43%
Creighton's all time win % in NCAA/NIT tournaments: 34%

And of course the natural conclusion would be that I'm only including the NIT because of WSU's NIT championship. Except that the NIT brings DOWN WSU's win % and brings UP Creighton's. Impressive how Creighton is more successful in the NIT despite the fact that they haven't made it to a third game since the 40s.

[rlh04d]

t happened directy in front of me. It simply did not look intentional.

You know, I really, REALLY thought it was intentional, but when faced with the convincing argument of someone so clearly unbiased, you've really changed my mind, RedbirdLisa. Clearly we're all wrong and it's just normal to shoot your foot out at 80 degrees into an opposing player when you rebound. Happens all the time.

It looked intentional to just about every single person not wearing red. Carmichael is a dirty player.

Don't be so nasty. I was there. It happened very fast. It just did not look dirty to me. To call Carmichael a dirty player is out of line. 885 rebounds and no flagrants. This play was unfortunate but I do not think it was intentional.

The level of nastiness and vitriol on this thread is really beyond the pale.

I was not being nasty. I was mocking your biased viewpoint in a sarcastic manner. There are ways I would respond to you if I intended to be nasty, and sarcasm is not it.

I would be willing to accept your argument if Carmichael, while staring at Cotton, had pulled his leg back rather than extended it. Your "feeling" of Carmichael being a clean player does not mesh with the evidence of him looking into a player's face while kicking towards it. If anyone would like to show me a picture of Carmichael throwing his leg out in front of him at an 80 degree angle without a player in front of his foot, I'll accept that it's just the way he rebounds. As it is, I don't buy it.

Seems every time Illinois State and WSU play these days something "unintentional" happens to hurt a WSU player. Kick to the face/chest here, punch to the nuts there. All entirely unintentional, of course. These things just happen. Of course, they seem to be only happening from one of the two teams.