Dan Muller

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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Wufan » May 29th, 2013, 11:26 am

Bmarq04 wrote:No doubt why I can see folks outside of Normal questioning any future success. If I remove myself from any bias towards the situation, it does look like a hell of an uphill battle towards success.

One thing I do want to throw out though....many people seem to talk about how much he underachieved with a great team this year. Although I do view last year as a fail, what in our roster constituted a great team? I'll throw this out to shocker fans since you seem to be the highest in volume of posters.....which of ISUs players would you have taken over your guys? Jackie and Tyler are likely choices, but seriously, who else? ISU was picked second but if you go back and dissect the roster, we had 2 good players and a roster of avg to below avg players. Good, balanced teams beat 2 stars and an avg cast 80%. Nights where Jackie and/or Tyler were neutralized gave us nearly no chance. We needed those two and someone else to step up all the time. But having that other person to step up was a major issue.

Next question, with the cast that was slated to return, what players would you take over nearly all other starters in the league? Who on our roster was gonna be that game changer that led us to victory? Who would you take ahead of your guys?

If I'm nearly every other team I look at this ISU team that coming back as more of a joke. There's debate as to whether Muller blew up the roster or players left on their own. I don't care to get into that, but put yourself in Muller's shoes......most coaches have 3-4 years before their job is extended or cut. You have a roster of players whose strengths don't fit your system and what you think it takes to win at this level. Sure you could tailor a system that you don't believe in to the roster on hand, or you could go out and get what you believe in and try to prove that your way is the right way. If you were in his shoes and knew you had 3-4 years to determine much of the rest of your career, would you tailor something that isn't what you want or would you go all out and do it your way and truly reap and rewards or failures? I would much rather fail my way than to try something I dont believe in and fail with regrets of not being true to myself and how I wanted it.

Not meant to throw any of this at anyone. Just trying to further the discussion and get clarity on why it was believed that last years team was that good and what you would do with the situations I presented. When I look at it that way and take of my biased glasses, I just don't see that much to say Muller was this or that, I just see it as an unproven coach that believes in a system or culture and he wants to do it his way and take responsibility for his success or failure. Next year will be difficult with that many new players but the year after, if there aren't significant sides forward, then I think we'll know the answer


Wilkins was a nice player. Ekey was puzzling to me as he was under-utilized. I believe Ekey was considered as one of the 10 best returning forwards in the league last year. I wouldn't have wanted Hill or Threloff to go.

For those of you that were blinded by optimism last year, how do you feel this year? Are you optimistic because you are a fan (and you should be) or because you are blinded by the press clippings? The guy that hasn't played yet is ALWAYS better than the guy that's playing now. Its natural to look at it that way.
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Re: Dan Muller

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Re: Dan Muller

Postby siufan4life » May 29th, 2013, 12:29 pm

valleychamp wrote:
Aargh wrote:The last Valley coach who either lost or ran off players at the rate IlSU is experiencing was named Lowery.

That didn't work out well for SIU, and there's little reason for anyone outside Normal to expect different results from what Muller has done.

The NBA is giving serious looks to Carmichael. Muller wasn't able to do much with Carmichael and what appeared to be a pretty decent supporting cast. That isn't inspiring confidence in Muller outside of Normal. How is there any expectation tht Muller can do better with a bunch of JuCo's than he could do with Carmichael and Allen?

I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation that Muller can do better with a bunch of players with no D1 experience than he could do with an all-MVC player, and Allen, and a bunch of proven Valley players. Wasn't IlSU the #2 pick in the pre-season polls? Evidently a couple of All-Valley type players didn't fit Muller's system so badly that IlSU was just able to avoid Thursday night in St. Louis.

Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Absolute delusion is performing an action that's obviously more likely to produce a worse result and expecting a better result.


Good God, what a myopic viewpoint. He's coached one season, and he's already deemed the next Lowery? Give me a break, let the guy get settled in with his own players.

Sometimes when there is a change in coaching regimes, the mesh of styles and personalities do not work. Just from the limited knowledge I have, it sure seems like Muller and Jankovic are very different coaches with different personalities, so it should be no surprise that it wasn't exactly a perfectly smooth and successful season.

Did Gregg Marshall win like 10 games in his first season? You simply cannot condemn a coach after one season.

Yeah, Muller had Carmichael and Brown. But Brown obviously was a selfish turd as he had to be suspended early in the season. And Jankovic took his starting PG with him to SMU. The fact is, ISU was a little overrated coming into last season based on a 5 game stretch at the end of the previous year where they looked good. When you lose your head coach, your starting PG, and have little depth, the expectations for that team were simply to high.

I'm pretty sure that Marshall didn't lose his entire team from the previous year his next season. I'm also pretty certain Marshall didn't come in with 2 NBA Draft picks on his roster. Similar things happen at SIU even in Lowery's first year but not on as big of a scale as this current situation. If this happens after this year Muller won't be on the ISU bench for much longer.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Redbird Recon » May 29th, 2013, 2:15 pm

On the flip side of player development...

Jackie’s game took a major step forward this season. He was a fringe 2nd rounder going into the season. Now most mock drafts have him solidly in, possibly even a late 1st rounder.

Johnny Hill was buried on Jank’s bench as a freshman. Muller moved him to a position he had never played, in our biggest area of need, and made him pretty darn serviceable. (Most-Improved Team)

As was discussed earlier, Jank’s last team was pretty poor when Nic Moore played poorly. When the point guard issues really started rearing their ugly head toward the end of this season, I know most ISU-red fans weren’t all that surprised to see the Birds suffer. It was also no surprise that Muller brought in 3 point guards this off-season.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Mikovio » May 29th, 2013, 2:35 pm

ISU Red had Carmichael (All MVC, projected to be first NBA draft pick out of MVC since 2006), Brown (All MVC), Wilkins (one of the better MVC forwards), Hill (up and down but no worse than the average MVC guard) and Ekey (now plays for Illini). Yes it's too early to pass judgment on Muller's ability but a team like that finishing 6th is one of the biggest underachievements in recent MVC memory. Its 6th man was just offered a scholarship on an upper division B1G team! In response, we hear about the "system" and how Muller was such a skilled, hard nosed player. As a Bradley fan I hear this and have flashbacks to 2004.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Redbird Recon » May 29th, 2013, 3:00 pm

Mikovio wrote:Wilkins (one of the better MVC forwards)

:bs:
Bradley fans are great. Redbird talent fluctuates based on whatever supports the demise of Illinois State.
BTW: Les and Lowery both got to the Sweet 16. If only we could be so lucky...
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby rlh04d » May 29th, 2013, 3:56 pm

valleychamp wrote:Did Gregg Marshall win like 10 games in his first season? You simply cannot condemn a coach after one season.

I certainly understand your point about not judging a coach after one season, but if you think Marshall's first season and Muller's are comparable in terms of what teams they took over, you're insane. Muller took over an IlSU team predicted to finish second, with numerous very talented players. I don't know what WSU was predicted to do in Marshall's first year, but I'd guess it was a Thursday night finish, as WSU's roster was empty when he came in. I believe we had one senior and maybe two total upper classmen on the roster?
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Redbird Recon » May 29th, 2013, 4:15 pm

Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.
Last edited by Redbird Recon on May 29th, 2013, 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby Wufan » May 29th, 2013, 4:43 pm

Redbird Recon wrote:Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to go 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.


Well done! I knew we finished 9th, but was not sure what we were slated. Certainly an underachieving season.
Muller will not be judged on his first or second season.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby rlh04d » May 29th, 2013, 8:44 pm

Bmarq04 wrote:No doubt why I can see folks outside of Normal questioning any future success. If I remove myself from any bias towards the situation, it does look like a hell of an uphill battle towards success.

One thing I do want to throw out though....many people seem to talk about how much he underachieved with a great team this year. Although I do view last year as a fail, what in our roster constituted a great team? I'll throw this out to shocker fans since you seem to be the highest in volume of posters.....which of ISUs players would you have taken over your guys? Jackie and Tyler are likely choices, but seriously, who else? ISU was picked second but if you go back and dissect the roster, we had 2 good players and a roster of avg to below avg players. Good, balanced teams beat 2 stars and an avg cast 80%. Nights where Jackie and/or Tyler were neutralized gave us nearly no chance. We needed those two and someone else to step up all the time. But having that other person to step up was a major issue.

Next question, with the cast that was slated to return, what players would you take over nearly all other starters in the league? Who on our roster was gonna be that game changer that led us to victory? Who would you take ahead of your guys?

If I'm nearly every other team I look at this ISU team that coming back as more of a joke. There's debate as to whether Muller blew up the roster or players left on their own. I don't care to get into that, but put yourself in Muller's shoes......most coaches have 3-4 years before their job is extended or cut. You have a roster of players whose strengths don't fit your system and what you think it takes to win at this level. Sure you could tailor a system that you don't believe in to the roster on hand, or you could go out and get what you believe in and try to prove that your way is the right way. If you were in his shoes and knew you had 3-4 years to determine much of the rest of your career, would you tailor something that isn't what you want or would you go all out and do it your way and truly reap and rewards or failures? I would much rather fail my way than to try something I dont believe in and fail with regrets of not being true to myself and how I wanted it.

Not meant to throw any of this at anyone. Just trying to further the discussion and get clarity on why it was believed that last years team was that good and what you would do with the situations I presented. When I look at it that way and take of my biased glasses, I just don't see that much to say Muller was this or that, I just see it as an unproven coach that believes in a system or culture and he wants to do it his way and take responsibility for his success or failure. Next year will be difficult with that many new players but the year after, if there aren't significant sides forward, then I think we'll know the answer

Solid argument.

I don't agree with your point about IlSU's roster, though. You returned all but one key player from a 21 win team that finished third in the Valley in 2011-12. I can't see any explanation for that not being a major disappointment unless you believe the year previous was a fluke.

I also don't think that's a great question for Shocker fans (and for Creighton fans). IlSU didn't have the roster to beat out either of those teams. However, they did have the roster to be better than Evansville, ISUb, probably even UNI.

I agree with the rest of that, though. I don't think one year proves anything about him as a coach, and if he didn't like what he was bringing back and had enough confidence in himself as a coach, he probably made the right move.

My only point right now is that while last year doesn't prove he's a bad coach ... it certainly has the needle pointed closer to "bad coach" than it does "good coach." At this point, there's nothing to really point to that says he can cut it at as a HC. He certainly has time to prove otherwise, though.
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Re: Dan Muller

Postby rlh04d » May 29th, 2013, 8:56 pm

Redbird Recon wrote:Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.

Fair point. Gregg underachieved as well ;)

Unfortunately that was the season that Matt Braeuer missed 10 games from concussions. We actually returned more than I thought for that season around him ... Couisnard and Thomasson as well. However, I believe those three, JR Preadom (who never really played), and SO Mekel were the only players left when he came in. Pretty amazing how we had no other Sophomores or Juniors on the roster ...

We had a number of JUCO transfers that year as well.
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