The MVC going into 2020 and beyond....

[IWokeUpLikeThis]

You make decisions over vast differences in budget, not splitting hairs.

Get tunnel vision over splitting hairs on the budget and you’ll end up adding UW-Milwaukee over Murray State and kill your league.

[Mikovio]

A budget increase in case of an invitation to the MVc was already approved by the Board of Regemts.

Yeah I know but why wait? Demonstrate the commitment first.

You make decisions over vast differences in budget, not splitting hairs.

Get tunnel vision over splitting hairs on the budget and you’ll end up adding UW-Milwaukee over Murray State and kill your league.

I agree we shouldn't make a mountain out of a few grand but if Murray's is $2M, and Wright's is $3M, that's not splitting hairs.

[RacerJoeD]

So, throw money at something to show you can? The biggest difference in budgetary spending would be on travel. Should we just take longer routes to games?

Jokes aside, I dont think there is any reasonable belief that commitment isn't there.

[Mikovio]

The biggest difference in budgetary spending would be on travel. Should we just take longer routes to games?

I find that hard to believe. Now, a program like Hawaii would have a budget inordinately eaten up by travel costs, but if you're comparing Murray to the Horizon or the Valley which are also bus leagues (Bradley only flies to MSU), I don't think travel explains the difference. But budgets are affected by things like higher private tuition and renting arenas (see BU and UE) which have little to do with competitiveness on the court, and those should be taken into consideration, sure.

I'm not really opposed to adding Murray. I think they have good name recognition and great fan support. I just have reservations about their ability to sustain that success. Now that they've given McMahon a raise, if he gets plucked away will they keep that same pay level to lure their next coach?

[RacerJoeD]

Our facilities (with the possible exception of the football stadium that needs a little work) are up to par. Only slight changes would be needed to be as good or better than MVC standards. Pay would increase some, but our main cost increase would be travel. At this point, we are in a bus league. Moving to MVC would cause us to charter a jet for games, which would be the main increase in our budget. Even then though, the increase wouldn't need to be a massive uptick up front to be competitive in the MVC.

[racerlover]

I just have reservations about their ability to sustain that success.

Murray has had one losing season out of what, the past 30+ seasons or more? If you don't win in Murray, you don't keep you job very long. Not many Division i schools can't boast that kind of record. I would say that is a pretty damn long, sustained run of success. And no offense, it's not like we're trying to get into the ACC. Sure, the MVC is a step or two up from the OVC, but it's not that far of a jump up. We would be just fine and compete well in the MVC. Hell, we'll be just fine without the MVC. The past 30+ years have proven that.

[Rambler63]

The A-10 and the Mountain West have very similar NET and RPI strength as a conference, but they're both considered stronger leagues that are more likely to produce multi bids. And what's the major difference? They both have budgets that are $500k to $1.5 million higher on average than the MVC.

And it's not spent only on travel. It's spent on things that fundamentally affect wins and losses, like:

Recruiting
Scouting
Strength/conditioning
Marketing/Brading/Advertising/Promotion
Getting a better home/road schedule
Getting into a better MTE
Foreign summer trips
High-level analytics

Some of this stuff you might not consider directly important to wins and losses, but if it helps retain players, it can be really important.

Quibbling over whether the new addition to the league has a budget higher than the current last place team doesn't make much difference, but expecting them to have a rock solid budgetary commitment to having an above-average budget upon entering a league that is already full of penny-pinchers is a serious, important thing.

Indiana State, Illinois State and SIU have had their budgets stagnant or frozen for something like 5-7 years, and it's showing in their on-court performance. AFAIK, Valpo has done nothing and put no plans out there for desperately-needed facilities improvements; did that have something to do with the recent exodus of half the roster? And does anyone think it's a coincidence that those teams I just mentioned finished 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th in the conference standings this year, despite having returning coaches, returning 1st team players, and mostly upperclassmen?

You can find exceptions here and there, and you can try to sound contrarian and smart by decrying "throwing money at (fill in the blank)," but the fact is, spending money almost always makes a difference, and sometimes a massive difference.

I'll just end with some rhetorical questions: If the MVC had an average men's basketball budget of $4.3 million (similar to what the A-10 has) instead of the $2.7 million or so average it has now, would WSU (with a budget over $6 million) have left the conference? What if the average budget was around $3.3 million, like the Mountain West? Both those conferences have had multiple bids and ranked teams the past two years, the MVC has not.

Here's another one: By all rights, St. Louis and Dayton belong in the MVC. St. Louis is a former longtime member located in the home town of the conference. Dayton has been conference mates with Loyola and Evansville, and no longer has rival Xavier in the same conference. Why do these two natural adds have no interest at all in joining a comparable conference with better travel and more natural regional rivalries? Why do longtime, serious MVC fans consider them too far out ahead of us to be able to woo them? Wouldn't adding Dayton and St. Louis instantly make the MVC a clearly superior conference to the A-10 and Mountain West? Hint: Look at their budgets, and look at ours.

[BCPanther]

It's oversimplifying to say it's "life as a mid-major" to have coaching turnover every few years if you enjoy success. Obviously, budget plays a huge part in whether you keep that coach and which schools can afford to hire him away. Wichita had the money to keep Gregg. If Loyola was paying Porter $400k I guarantee he'd be gone to some AAC or Mountain West school. He still might if some B1G school comes calling with millions but Loyola is able to ward off the middle tier, why? Budget. You call turnover a "good problem to have" but if you have constant turnover you'll eventually roll snake eyes and some Chris Lowery will crater your program. Luck is not a strategy.

Good to hear that Murray raised McMahon to $500k. Hopefully they raise his recruiting budget and assistant coaches salaries too. A $100k bump to their budget puts them in a virtual tie with Indiana State.

MVC Average Budget $3.08M
1. Loyola $6,194,444
2. Bradley $3,555,837
3. Evansville $3,231,007
4. Missouri St $3,070,453
5. UNI $3,024,333
6. Drake $2,696,222
7. Valpo $2,693,562
8. Illinois St $2,209,131
9. SIU $2,127,894
10. Indiana St $2,055,794
Murray State $1,957,966.00
Budgets as per US Dept of Ed


And yes, UNI is the best at balancing football and basketball of all the athletic programs in the Valley even though they've been a bit down lately. It's awesome that they can pay Jacobson what they do and hang onto him after all the success he's had. If they didn't he'd probably be in the MWC at least. But most programs can't afford to do both so well, and that can hamper their ability to make the coaching moves they want, like with Greg Lansing and Barry Hinson. You end up with mediocrity in both sports. There must be gold in them thar corn fields in Cedar Falls.

UNI and Missouri State are at the bottom of where the public schools should be. The privates above them are a little skewed because tuition costs are so much higher.

It's awesome that Missouri State is investing how they are.

[BCPanther]

Our facilities (with the possible exception of the football stadium that needs a little work) are up to par. Only slight changes would be needed to be as good or better than MVC standards. Pay would increase some, but our main cost increase would be travel. At this point, we are in a bus league. Moving to MVC would cause us to charter a jet for games, which would be the main increase in our budget. Even then though, the increase wouldn't need to be a massive uptick up front to be competitive in the MVC.

Your football stadium is fine. Much better than both Indiana State and Western Illinois and on par with South Dakota.

[Stickboy46]

It's oversimplifying to say it's "life as a mid-major" to have coaching turnover every few years if you enjoy success. Obviously, budget plays a huge part in whether you keep that coach and which schools can afford to hire him away. Wichita had the money to keep Gregg. If Loyola was paying Porter $400k I guarantee he'd be gone to some AAC or Mountain West school. He still might if some B1G school comes calling with millions but Loyola is able to ward off the middle tier, why? Budget. You call turnover a "good problem to have" but if you have constant turnover you'll eventually roll snake eyes and some Chris Lowery will crater your program. Luck is not a strategy.

Good to hear that Murray raised McMahon to $500k. Hopefully they raise his recruiting budget and assistant coaches salaries too. A $100k bump to their budget puts them in a virtual tie with Indiana State.

MVC Average Budget $3.08M
1. Loyola $6,194,444
2. Bradley $3,555,837
3. Evansville $3,231,007
4. Missouri St $3,070,453
5. UNI $3,024,333
6. Drake $2,696,222
7. Valpo $2,693,562
8. Illinois St $2,209,131
9. SIU $2,127,894
10. Indiana St $2,055,794
Murray State $1,957,966.00
Budgets as per US Dept of Ed


And yes, UNI is the best at balancing football and basketball of all the athletic programs in the Valley even though they've been a bit down lately. It's awesome that they can pay Jacobson what they do and hang onto him after all the success he's had. If they didn't he'd probably be in the MWC at least. But most programs can't afford to do both so well, and that can hamper their ability to make the coaching moves they want, like with Greg Lansing and Barry Hinson. You end up with mediocrity in both sports. There must be gold in them thar corn fields in Cedar Falls.

I believe the numbers you posted were for the 2017-2018 athletic year. Keep in mind that the reason Loyola's number is so high is due to one time costs associated with the Final Four run. It's not normally that high. They obviously have money, but i don't believe their average budget is at the top of the league (could be wrong on that though)

EDIT: I believe they had a budget of 2.82 million the year before
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/m ... 47959.html