Conference Realignment - impact on MVC?

[BCPanther]

I know it seems odd, but I honestly think that in some ways, Wichita State has more in common with Marquette or DePaul than they do with Indiana State.

Athletically perhaps, but not academically. To be fair, it isn't really feasible to compare state school admissions standards with private school admissions standards because their missions are so dramatically different. Further, the funding models are completely different -- private schools are completely self supporting, while state schools get $$ handed to them from state legislatures.

This is a very significant point. Makes WSU's 94% acceptance rate absolutely laughable when the rest of the public schools in the league are between 70-80% with SIU being the outlier in the low 40s.

Wichita State has some very good programs and does do some things VERY well, but when compared to other public institutions as a whole, they leave something to be desired...

[shocktheheart]

I know it seems odd, but I honestly think that in some ways, Wichita State has more in common with Marquette or DePaul than they do with Indiana State.

Athletically perhaps, but not academically. To be fair, it isn't really feasible to compare state school admissions standards with private school admissions standards because their missions are so dramatically different. Further, the funding models are completely different -- private schools are completely self supporting, while state schools get $$ handed to them from state legislatures.

This is a very significant point. Makes WSU's 94% acceptance rate absolutely laughable when the rest of the public schools in the league are between 70-80% with SIU being the outlier in the low 40s.

Wichita State has some very good programs and does do some things VERY well, but when compared to other public institutions as a whole, they leave something to be desired...

I know at least when I went to college here in Kansas back in the 90's, if you graduated from a Kansas accredited high school all of the public colleges have to admit you. Don't know if that is the case anymore.

[CBB_Fan]

Athletically perhaps, but not academically. To be fair, it isn't really feasible to compare state school admissions standards with private school admissions standards because their missions are so dramatically different. Further, the funding models are completely different -- private schools are completely self supporting, while state schools get $$ handed to them from state legislatures.

But see, Wichita State doesn't have much choice in what it does academically. They don't set their admissions standards, the Kansas Board of Regents does. The is why all three major colleges in Kansas have the same admissions standards, even an AAU school like KU. They also have decent expenditures in some programs (#2 in the country for Aerospace Engineering).

I should mention that KU has a 93% admissions rate, and still is one of the best schools both in the Big 12 and in the country. I tend to think that admissions rate are somewhat of a bogus measurement that is used and abused to make certain schools look better without actually performing better.

However, Wichita State can control their athletic expenses and has more independence in that regard, so it represents the university's identity more than admissions standards do.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Athletically perhaps, but not academically. To be fair, it isn't really feasible to compare state school admissions standards with private school admissions standards because their missions are so dramatically different. Further, the funding models are completely different -- private schools are completely self supporting, while state schools get $$ handed to them from state legislatures.

But see, Wichita State doesn't have much choice in what it does academically. They don't set their admissions standards, the Kansas Board of Regents does. The is why all three major colleges in Kansas have the same admissions standards, even an AAU school like KU. They also have decent expenditures in some programs (#2 in the country for Aerospace Engineering).

I should mention that KU has a 93% admissions rate, and still is one of the best schools both in the Big 12 and in the country. I tend to think that admissions rate are somewhat of a bogus measurement that is used and abused to make certain schools look better without actually performing better.

However, Wichita State can control their athletic expenses and has more independence in that regard, so it represents the university's identity more than admissions standards do.

Who sets the standards is irrelevant.

You said that WSU has more in common with Marquette or Depaul than with Indiana St. I said that is perhaps true from an athletic standpoint, but not true academically. The fact that WSU may or may not set its admission standards does not change that fact. From an academic standpoint, WSU couldn't be more different from those schools. The less rigid standards give WSU a recruiting advantage over private schools in that private schools have to recruit players that can also meet the higher admission standards. It is the fundamental difference between privates and publics.

I suspect that if you ask any private school, they will feel that they have very little in common with WSU (or any other public school for that matter).

[CBB_Fan]

Who sets the standards is irrelevant.

You said that WSU has more in common with Marquette or Depaul than with Indiana St. I said that is perhaps true from an athletic standpoint, but not true academically. The fact that WSU may or may not set its admission standards does not change that fact. From an academic standpoint, WSU couldn't be more different from those schools. The less rigid standards give WSU a recruiting advantage over private schools in that private schools have to recruit players that can also meet the higher admission standards. It is the fundamental difference between privates and publics.

I suspect that if you ask any private school, they will feel that they have very little in common with WSU (or any other public school for that matter).

I can only speak from Wichita State's perspective. And Wichita State feels more of a connection to urban basketball schools like Marquette and DePaul than they do to a more rural, small athletic budget school like Indiana State (and that applies to other schools in the MVC as well).

I know that private school feel that admissions standards are one the most important defining characteristics of a school, but I disagree. And this is not coming from a person that attended Wichita State solely because they didn't qualify for other colleges (my other choices were all prestigious private schools, but it made more economic sense to attend Wichita State).

This isn't necessarily very topical (it isn't an argument that Wichita State is just like a private school academically, because that isn't what I'm trying to say), but I feel that the most important aspects of a school are:

1. How well it prepares a person for life beyond college. (will they get a job?)
2. What type of connections will a person gain from attending the school? (how well established are the professors in their field?)
3. What will the school do to your wallet? (Will you have $100,000+ dollars of debt?)

Wichita State meets those marks in my opinion, depending on a person's area of study. It probably is not the school you want to go to for marine biology, but it has a few very strong programs.

1. 47% of Wichita State graduates get a job within their major immediately after graduating.
2. Wichita State is home to the largest aviation research institution in the US, and their professors are fairly well established in their fields (particularly the engineering and business faculty, simply because of the business landscape of Wichita).
3. A good student will have many opportunities to reduce their cost to attend Wichita State and graduate with little to no debt. (which is actually how I think it should be; expenses should be the reward for being a good student not mere qualification)


Again, I understand how a private college look at Wichita State and say "we are nothing like them." But Wichita State feels more connection to private schools in urban areas with strong basketball and little to no football than they feel with rural areas that have smaller budgets or focus more on football, regardless of academic similarities they may have.

[BCPanther]

Who sets the standards is irrelevant.

You said that WSU has more in common with Marquette or Depaul than with Indiana St. I said that is perhaps true from an athletic standpoint, but not true academically. The fact that WSU may or may not set its admission standards does not change that fact. From an academic standpoint, WSU couldn't be more different from those schools. The less rigid standards give WSU a recruiting advantage over private schools in that private schools have to recruit players that can also meet the higher admission standards. It is the fundamental difference between privates and publics.

I suspect that if you ask any private school, they will feel that they have very little in common with WSU (or any other public school for that matter).

I can only speak from Wichita State's perspective. And Wichita State feels more of a connection to urban basketball schools like Marquette and DePaul than they do to a more rural, small athletic budget school like Indiana State (and that applies to other schools in the MVC as well).

I know that private school feel that admissions standards are one the most important defining characteristics of a school, but I disagree. And this is not coming from a person that attended Wichita State solely because they didn't qualify for other colleges (my other choices were all prestigious private schools, but it made more economic sense to attend Wichita State).

This isn't necessarily very topical (it isn't an argument that Wichita State is just like a private school academically, because that isn't what I'm trying to say), but I feel that the most important aspects of a school are:

1. How well it prepares a person for life beyond college. (will they get a job?)
2. What type of connections will a person gain from attending the school? (how well established are the professors in their field?)
3. What will the school do to your wallet? (Will you have $100,000+ dollars of debt?)

Wichita State meets those marks in my opinion, depending on a person's area of study. It probably is not the school you want to go to for marine biology, but it has a few very strong programs.

1. 47% of Wichita State graduates get a job within their major immediately after graduating.
2. Wichita State is home to the largest aviation research institution in the US, and their professors are fairly well established in their fields (particularly the engineering and business faculty, simply because of the business landscape of Wichita).
3. A good student will have many opportunities to reduce their cost to attend Wichita State and graduate with little to no debt. (which is actually how I think it should be; expenses should be the reward for being a good student not mere qualification)


Again, I understand how a private college look at Wichita State and say "we are nothing like them." But Wichita State feels more connection to private schools in urban areas with strong basketball and little to no football than they feel with rural areas that have smaller budgets or focus more on football, regardless of academic similarities they may have.

Well said.

However, it puts WSU in a kind of no-man's land when it comes to conference affiliation.

The lack of football make you a no-go in a league like the Mountain West where geographically you fit fairly well and would be competitive from a basketball standpoint, on floor and budget wise, from day one. They obviously don't care about having an odd number of football teams with Hawaii being in the league.

You don't fit into a private-model league like the C7 will be. Even though your profile athletically fits right in line with the Creighton, Dayton, and St Louis's of the world. You are too far away from the WCC, which will be decimated if Gonzaga, St Mary's and BYU leave.

Your only option is to be in a league like the Valley.

I really feel for Wichita simply because you don't really have any peer institutions. Being a large public that doesn't have football is a very, very unique situation. Your prospects get really bleak if UNI and ISU would decide that being a full member of the MAC is a better option than staying in FCS football.

I just have this feeling that once Creighton makes it official, Elgin will add NDSU, Milwaukee and another public school (Murray? SDSU?) because of the uncertainty of where the private schools are going to go.

NDSU I am on board with. There is a ton of money up there and from what I understand they have a donor committed to building an 8000 seat basketball arena as soon as the Valley invite happens.

[CBB_Fan]

Well said.

However, it puts WSU in a kind of no-man's land when it comes to conference affiliation.

The lack of football make you a no-go in a league like the Mountain West where geographically you fit fairly well and would be competitive from a basketball standpoint, on floor and budget wise, from day one. They obviously don't care about having an odd number of football teams with Hawaii being in the league.

You don't fit into a private-model league like the C7 will be. Even though your profile athletically fits right in line with the Creighton, Dayton, and St Louis's of the world. You are too far away from the WCC, which will be decimated if Gonzaga, St Mary's and BYU leave.

Your only option is to be in a league like the Valley.

I really feel for Wichita simply because you don't really have any peer institutions. Being a large public that doesn't have football is a very, very unique situation. Your prospects get really bleak if UNI and ISU would decide that being a full member of the MAC is a better option than staying in FCS football.

I just have this feeling that once Creighton makes it official, Elgin will add NDSU, Milwaukee and another public school (Murray? SDSU?) because of the uncertainty of where the private schools are going to go.

NDSU I am on board with. There is a ton of money up there and from what I understand they have a donor committed to building an 8000 seat basketball arena as soon as the Valley invite happens.

I agree with you, and honestly it is the only reason I think Wichita State should consider football. If they cannot get an invite to the C7 (seems unlikely now, but I think it is still a slim possibility) or get an invite to to MWC as a non-football school, Wichita State has NO options.

They should consider football in that case not because it is necessarily the greatest option in the world or because it would make a bunch of money, but because it would give them some common ground and hopefully give the school more flexibility. Being one of a kind is great until you find out you need company.

[BCPanther]

Honest question--

Would starting football pull resources away from your basketball program, or would your basketball donors continue to support basketball in the same fashion they do now?

[DoubleJayAlum]

Honest question--

Would starting football pull resources away from your basketball program, or would your basketball donors continue to support basketball in the same fashion they do now?

Unless a benefactor came forward to finance all of the costs of football, wouldn't starting FB have to pull resources away from basketball?

[BCPanther]

Honest question--

Would starting football pull resources away from your basketball program, or would your basketball donors continue to support basketball in the same fashion they do now?

Unless a benefactor came forward to finance all of the costs of football, wouldn't starting FB have to pull resources away from basketball?

Depends. I know at UNI, as an example, a bunch of our donors make their contributions sport specific and the majority of those go to football. Maybe WSU would be the reverse...