Wichita State at Illinois State on Sunday 7pm

[rlh04d]

So, because of one incident where it is still unclear (maybe not to you) whether there was malicious intent by one of the best guys in the league, we are suddenly a dirty team? And all of these allegations are coming from one person saying that people were throwing coins. I was at the game and definitely saw things coming from the student section, but that is the absolute opposite end from the tunnel where the wsu players were exiting. I have heard multiple accounts from people that were sitting in that section above the tunnel, none of which saw any "coin zinging". So, maybe one person threw a penny in the general direction of Carl Hall, or maybe nothing of the sort happened. Either way, it is ludicrous to say that we are a dirty team or trashy fan base because of this one incident. Obviously both sides are biased on the topic, but one thing is for sure: the refs gave the free throws to the wrong player, which could have drastically changed that game. So either way, the refs screwed up.

One incident I would give you the benefit of the doubt.

Add in things being thrown from the crowd, with apparently no punishment (even ignoring disputed reports about coins being thrown, objects definitely were thrown). Add in the "accidental" nut shot on Stutz in the tournament. And if I remember right, Stutz was complaining that he was being kicked in the back of the shins by an ISU player throughout the game.

Just saying, lots of accidents happen around your program that's so full of fine, upstanding men, and classy fans.

And no, two things are for sure: the refs gave the FTs to the wrong player, AND they incorrectly allowed the play to continue in order to force WSU to foul giving IllSt FTs. I would have MUCH rather had Cotton at the line for FTs and the ball back as a 60% shooter than Early going to the line as an 80% shooter AFTER IllSt had been allowed to shoot FTs for a foul that occurred after a flagrant foul. They made TWO mistakes there, and those two mistakes disproportionately benefited YOUR team, not mine.

[rlh04d]

To me, it seems that the refs knew that they screwed things up a great deal (missing the call originally, waiting too long to review it, etc.) so they decided "hey, we might as well even it up and give the other team 2 free throws too". So, all that says to me is that the refs were clueless on the whole situation in the first place so they gave us both free throws. The way I see it, if we didn't get the free throws, Cotton shoots 2, probably misses one. you guys score and maybe we go down and hit a 3. Thus, forcing overtime. What I'm saying is if the refs knew what they were doing, a lot of things about that last 40 seconds could have been different.

Absolutely none of that makes any sense.

You're essentially saying that the FTs for IllSt were given incorrectly as a make up for ... what? Wasting time?

You're also asserting that WSU getting one EXTRA point (eliminating the four made FTs that canceled one another out, adding one from Cotton) would actually give ISU MORE of a chance at forcing OT.

Interesting argument.

[TheShock]

So, because of one incident where it is still unclear (maybe not to you) whether there was malicious intent by one of the best guys in the league, we are suddenly a dirty team? And all of these allegations are coming from one person saying that people were throwing coins. I was at the game and definitely saw things coming from the student section, but that is the absolute opposite end from the tunnel where the wsu players were exiting. I have heard multiple accounts from people that were sitting in that section above the tunnel, none of which saw any "coin zinging". So, maybe one person threw a penny in the general direction of Carl Hall, or maybe nothing of the sort happened. Either way, it is ludicrous to say that we are a dirty team or trashy fan base because of this one incident. Obviously both sides are biased on the topic, but one thing is for sure: the refs gave the free throws to the wrong player, which could have drastically changed that game. So either way, the refs screwed up.

One incident I would give you the benefit of the doubt.

Add in things being thrown from the crowd, with apparently no punishment (even ignoring disputed reports about coins being thrown, objects definitely were thrown). Add in the "accidental" nut shot on Stutz in the tournament. And if I remember right, Stutz was complaining that he was being kicked in the back of the shins by an ISU player throughout the game.

Just saying, lots of accidents happen around your program that's so full of fine, upstanding men, and classy fans.

And no, two things are for sure: the refs gave the FTs to the wrong player, AND they incorrectly allowed the play to continue in order to force WSU to foul giving IllSt FTs. I would have MUCH rather had Cotton at the line for FTs and the ball back as a 60% shooter than Early going to the line as an 80% shooter AFTER IllSt had been allowed to shoot FTs for a foul that occurred after a flagrant foul. They made TWO mistakes there, and those two mistakes disproportionately benefited YOUR team, not mine.

[shoxrox]

rlh04d pretty much nailed everything that needed to be said.

I guess I'm still perplexed on why Redbird fans are blaming the entire game on Marshall (I mean a guy karate kicked his player in the upper torso without a whistle being blown, so he rightfully got the ref's attention), Pollard (who effed up the shooters but once again Illinois State received the benefit of 2 extra free throws), and conspiracy theories (I thought WSU fans only did that?), all while ignoring the fact that their team shot up wild, crazy, and quick 3 pointers in the final 2 minutes, dribbled a ball out of bounds with their own two hands, and WSU taking advantage hitting big shot after big shot. Ever thought that it was your own team that wet the bed?

If anything, Illinois State ended up with the better situation at the end, receiving the benefit of extra free throws.

A lot of neutral Valley fans have weighed in on this. A lot of them have weighed in on their own boards and even non-Valley fans have left comments on national websites or on their own forums. I haven't seen one place, besides the Redbird board, that didn't feel it didn't look like an intentional kick. Most were appalled there wasn't even a suspension given to Carmichael. And never, ANYWHERE, did anyone think that Illinois State was the ones that got SCREWED out of the game.

Case closed.

[RedbirdLisa]

[You know, I really, REALLY thought it was intentional, but when faced with the convincing argument of someone so clearly unbiased, you've really changed my mind, RedbirdLisa. Clearly we're all wrong and it's just normal to shoot your foot out at 80 degrees into an opposing player when you rebound. Happens all the time.

It looked intentional to just about every single person not wearing red. Carmichael is a dirty player.[/quote]
Don't be so nasty. I was there. It happened very fast. It just did not look dirty to me. To call Carmichael a dirty player is out of line. 885 rebounds and no flagrants. This play was unfortunate but I do not think it was intentional.

The level of nastiness and vitriol on this thread is really beyond the pale.[/quote]

Lisa, if the roles were reversed, and it still happened directly in front of you, Carl Hall skyed for a rebound and
forcefully extended his leg and connected his foot solidly against Tyler Brown's chest knocking him backwards, how would you react? Remember, God is watching. [/quote]

Again, it happens so quickly. There is no replay for me to see in super slow motion again and again as the offcials are deciding at the monitor. My view in real time was wow he can jump. I was surprised no foul was called at the time simply because contact was made but the official was right there. I assumed if he didn't think it was then maybe it wasn't.

I resent the notion that Jackie is a dirty player. He simply is not. He has not shown that tendency during the 4 years I have had the pleasure to watch him play. I just do not believe he would start now at the end of his college career and what would we have to gain with a flagrant at that point in the game. It just does not add up. I haven't watched enough of Carl to know his tendencies. Now if Ech had done it....

Throwing the crap on the floor after the game was immature and embarassing to me as a Redbird fan. I am certainly disappointed in my fellow fans. It was a disappointing loss. We have come so far since the 0-6 start. Here's hoping we can make some noise at the Arch.

[Snaggletooth]

guess what - WSU still won and Elgin said no harm, no foul and ISU needs to review it security procedures.

[SHOXMVC]

[You know, I really, REALLY thought it was intentional, but when faced with the convincing argument of someone so clearly unbiased, you've really changed my mind, RedbirdLisa. Clearly we're all wrong and it's just normal to shoot your foot out at 80 degrees into an opposing player when you rebound. Happens all the time.

It looked intentional to just about every single person not wearing red. Carmichael is a dirty player.

Don't be so nasty. I was there. It happened very fast. It just did not look dirty to me. To call Carmichael a dirty player is out of line. 885 rebounds and no flagrants. This play was unfortunate but I do not think it was intentional.

The level of nastiness and vitriol on this thread is really beyond the pale.[/quote]

Lisa, if the roles were reversed, and it still happened directly in front of you, Carl Hall skyed for a rebound and
forcefully extended his leg and connected his foot solidly against Tyler Brown's chest knocking him backwards, how would you react? Remember, God is watching. [/quote]

Again, it happens so quickly. There is no replay for me to see in super slow motion again and again as the offcials are deciding at the monitor. My view in real time was wow he can jump. I was surprised no foul was called at the time simply because contact was made but the official was right there. I assumed if he didn't think it was then maybe it wasn't.

I resent the notion that Jackie is a dirty player. He simply is not. He has not shown that tendency during the 4 years I have had the pleasure to watch him play. I just do not believe he would start now at the end of his college career and what would we have to gain with a flagrant at that point in the game. It just does not add up. I haven't watched enough of Carl to know his tendencies. Now if Ech had done it....

Throwing the crap on the floor after the game was immature and embarassing to me as a Redbird fan. I am certainly disappointed in my fellow fans. It was a disappointing loss. We have come so far since the 0-6 start. Here's hoping we can make some noise at the Arch.[/quote]

I am not in the camp that professes JC is a dirty player. As you even stated earlier that " it happens so quickly," even in the eyes of players. JC snared a rebound and his brain cramp resulted in an obvious aggressive physical outburst of a kick. You can't deny it...period. He made a bad error in judgement, as we all do at times in our lives. Just because he is a great kid and didn't premeditated this aggressive action, doesn't preclude appropriate punishment...which in this case was a F1. Have you looked at the video? Look at it again and imagine JC was Carl Hall kicking the sh$t out of Tyler Brown. Let me know your reaction.

Many 'bird fans want to make an argument that the official was right there looking directly at the play and didn't blow the whistle at the time it happened, so it must not have been an infraction. What a stupid assumption, because that same official, along with his colleagues, saw on the replay that he totally blew it in real time and did the right thing resulting in the F1.

[GoShockers89]

Everyone really needs to work on using the quote button.

[isuredbirds92]

Apparently you people don't know how to read. What I said was that the refs gave us those free throws because they clearly didn't know WHAT to call. My guess is that they couldn't tell from the replays whether there was any contact made or not. I have seen camera angles that look like contact was made and some that look like there was no contact made. Depending on what the refs saw, they may not have been able to determine what the correct call was. Of all people, I would think you WSU fans would be able to understand the uproar over a controversial call that cost you a game...

[BirdmanBB]

God some of you shocker fans need to get over yourselves. I love how many of you discredit ISU without recognizing your own teams faults. Most ISU posters recognized the need for a foul to be called, no one argued that fact. You guys are complaining about your players getting hurt. I remember the Stutz play and how Wilkins tried to get up and Stutz locked him up (you guys pulled the same crap the other night too). Truth is, teams take on the personality of their coaches and most can agree that Marshall has been nothing but whiny since he has been in the MVC. Always complaining about this, that and the other. I can only speak to what I have seen, but most teams in the valley have a "marshall story" as evident from the many threads posted on the topic on this board and across the valley, but some shocker fans still don't get it. Think its a coincidence? Just some who fanatically post, not all (I would like to make that known that not all shocker posters are goofs). It's amazing how many new shocker posters there are. 88 posts and half of them on this thread. I remember last year in the valley tourney when the redbirds beat WSU and Marshall would not give any credit to ISU, he blamed poor officiating and that WSU never gets a fair shake on a "neutral" court (that was a laugher). How about after the game when he jumped ahead of Jankovich in the post game to complain when the winning teams coach is supposed to go first in front of the media. How about at the recent game with the players taunting our players and fans and even the coaches taunting our coaches. Rather than get a hold of the situation like muller did, Marshall is talking s*** all the way out of the building and letting his team and coaches get out of control. You guys have the balls to do that s*** on an opposing teams court. What did you expect would happen? And we kept ourselves in check.

Sure we are blaming the refs for that game, but it is backed up by the refs being reprimanded for poor officiating.

I am starting to believe that a lot of shocker fans are starting to take on the personality of Marshall as well. I'm shutting the door on this game. Thats all I have left to say. Hope to see you in the mvc tourney. It would be an extremely entertaining game.