William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby BEARZ77 » November 1st, 2011, 4:08 pm

WSUbballer wrote:If somebody acted like that on another team, you'd be doing the same thing. You're just blindly loyal apparently.


Not really, I don't get too worried about the over exhuberance of young people, certainly not enough to still be crying about it a year later. Yeah if some player is out there undercutting players going to the basket, throwing elbows at head level and generally putting someone elses health in jeopardy, that's something to make note of. But personally I like players who show passion and a little attitude whether that be Kyle Weems or Jamar Howard, as long as it's honest and spontaneous. It's so subjective how we evaluate these things; ever watch a volleyball match. Think how harshly we would label a basketball player who ran around after every single spike or block that led to a point with hands thrust in the air celebrating the way they do in that sport. But who really gives a rip other than some insecure nutjob looking to impose their own set of values on some kid they know nothing about.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby MoValley John » November 1st, 2011, 4:40 pm

Just a little note, I have never seen a defensive football player gesturing or celebrating during a play. The first time I see it will probably be the same time as that player is pulled for not paying attention. Nor have I seen it in volleyball. Basketball, unlike those sports, is a fluid game. A team scores, the other team puts the ball in play and the clock does not stop. There is little time for celebration after a basket and those celebrations that occur during continuation are usually short and sweet. Play continues in basketball and the antics being discussed often happened during live play. The stuff that happened last year was beyond chest thumping. It was full-court antics. I have also said that the behavior was in line with the behavior and antics of the coach. Much of this may change with Cuonzo gone.

I have said it several times that I have no problem with celebration and I don't exactly know where to draw the line. But when celebration gets to the level of doing a "Superman" all the way down the floor during a live ball, yes, it's over the top. That said, if Missouri State fans are good with it, fine. They also get the pleasure of living with the reputation of supporting such behavior. Keep in mind that this fan mentality is akin to fans of a team that support cheap and dirty players. It's the same mentality as, "Maybe he's a thug, but he's our thug."

Then again, I was always a fan of the Hansen Brothers. So drawing the line is and can be difficult.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby BEARZ77 » November 1st, 2011, 6:01 pm

If people want to believe what they saw from Kyle last year was "over the top" not much to say to counter that. It is what it is in peoples perception, and if they want to believe it was unique to only a couple Missouri State players in the recent history of Valley basketball, again that's their perogative to. And if it's seen as justifiable to throw those stones in a thread that has nothing to do with that issue but was about impressions of new Bear players in an exhibition game, then I guess that's how these things will be played out now that the season is nigh. Touche.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby glm38 » November 1st, 2011, 6:06 pm

I remember 2 years ago when WSU beat us at JQH. During that game I remember a lot of chest bumping, fist pumping, and similar plays from WSU as we were being soundly beaten by the Shockers. I was there and it didn't sit well with me. There were even a couple of plays where a Shocker player took down a Bear and stood over him a second or 2. Hard but clean plays.

BUT even though I didn't like it - it didn't occur to me to indict or criticize those Shocker players for their play that game. There was nothing dirty or unsportsmanlike about it. But the reverse is also true of the Bears and Weems last year during our highly successful season including our 2 wins over the Shockers. Such criticism is just absurd.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby MoValley John » November 1st, 2011, 6:26 pm

BEARZ77 wrote:If people want to believe what they saw from Kyle last year was "over the top" not much to say to counter that. It is what it is in peoples perception, and if they want to believe it was unique to only a couple Missouri State players in the recent history of Valley basketball, again that's their perogative to. And if it's seen as justifiable to throw those stones in a thread that has nothing to do with that issue but was about impressions of new Bear players in an exhibition game, then I guess that's how these things will be played out now that the season is nigh. Touche.


I don't think you can put all of the outside criticism on Weems, as I've consistently said, his behavior was no more "over the top than that of Cuonzo Martin. And yes, on the sidelines, Martin exhibited poor behavior. He failed to shake hands, he celebrated while going through handshake line. This is, like it or not, unacceptable behavior from a head coach. More than focusing on Weems, I stand by the belief that this type of behavior is directly reflective of the coach. The Miami Hurricane football team is a prime example. When Miami has had coaches that tolerated and even encouraged bad behavior, bad behavior flourished. Whenever the school tries to change that image, the antics disappear. Unfortunately for Miami, they are only as good as their antics and behavior is bad. Miami cycles from being a world beater- thug team, to a mediocre group of polite football players.

As for Weems, I'm sure he's a good guy, most Valley players on every team are good guys. Fans despise these otherwise good guys simply because they play for another team. That fact is unfortunate, as most of these student athletes are upstanding individuals. With regards to Weems and his antics last year, I can understand Bear fans denying he was over the top, but I remember reading a Missouri State blog regarding this subject last year. His behavior was criticized. Today I Googled and Googled but I couldn't find it. I did, however, find another blog recapping the Missouri State/ SIU game in the MVC. Once again, this is a MSU blogger and here is his take on Weems play:

:01.4, 58-56 — With all of his teammates on the baseline, Weems takes Carlton Fay off the dribble. Fay forces Weems right and the Valley Player of the Year lofts up a floater that kisses off the glass and in. If Leonard had “The Shot” against Wichita State, then Weems just completed “The Kiss.” What I liked was that Weems didn’t chest thump, didn’t taunt, didn’t individually celebrate. He simply stopped Southern Illinois’ heart like Black Mamba did at the end of Kill Bill II with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique. (He later flying chest bumped with his teammates, but it wasn’t a purely look at me moment. Here is the link: http://tagsgf.com/2011/03/05/breaking-down-msus-crazy-comeback-w-video/

I would add that if local bloggers have commented on his behavior, the criticism has some merit. Then again, it will be interesting to see if his behavior is tolerated this year. I doubt it. Different coach, different expectations.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby AndShock » November 1st, 2011, 7:25 pm

glm38 wrote:I remember 2 years ago when WSU beat us at JQH. During that game I remember a lot of chest bumping, fist pumping, and similar plays from WSU as we were being soundly beaten by the Shockers. I was there and it didn't sit well with me. There were even a couple of plays where a Shocker player took down a Bear and stood over him a second or 2. Hard but clean plays.


We also had a player shoved by one of your students. I don't particularly remember any part of your post, but if it's true I guess we can agree it was a very heated game.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby CaseyGarrisonforPrez » November 1st, 2011, 8:11 pm

MoValley John wrote:Just a little note, I have never seen a defensive football player gesturing or celebrating during a play. The first time I see it will probably be the same time as that player is pulled for not paying attention. Nor have I seen it in volleyball. Basketball, unlike those sports, is a fluid game. A team scores, the other team puts the ball in play and the clock does not stop. There is little time for celebration after a basket and those celebrations that occur during continuation are usually short and sweet. Play continues in basketball and the antics being discussed often happened during live play. The stuff that happened last year was beyond chest thumping. It was full-court antics. I have also said that the behavior was in line with the behavior and antics of the coach. Much of this may change with Cuonzo gone.

I have said it several times that I have no problem with celebration and I don't exactly know where to draw the line. But when celebration gets to the level of doing a "Superman" all the way down the floor during a live ball, yes, it's over the top. That said, if Missouri State fans are good with it, fine. They also get the pleasure of living with the reputation of supporting such behavior. Keep in mind that this fan mentality is akin to fans of a team that support cheap and dirty players. It's the same mentality as, "Maybe he's a thug, but he's our thug."

Then again, I was always a fan of the Hansen Brothers. So drawing the line is and can be difficult.


If Missouri State fans get that sort of reputation, then I am completely cool with it. It'll show that we are fun and not a bunch of blue haired squares. I love the enthusiasm of Weems and Creekmore too. If it bothers opposing Valley players so much they can you know stop them and that would shut them up. The fact is that people hate winners and we won the Valley last year. It is nothing more than that really. Weems is a bad dude, so what? This isn't the boy scouts this is division 1 basketball. It's just like the CU fans that were upset when Cuonzo shook hands to hard. Come on... this is competition among men. If it makes us thugs then whatver. They called Miami "Thug U" but they were bad dudes that won. I'd love to be like them as a school.
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby MSUDuo » November 1st, 2011, 8:31 pm

CaseyGarrisonforPrez wrote:
MoValley John wrote:Just a little note, I have never seen a defensive football player gesturing or celebrating during a play. The first time I see it will probably be the same time as that player is pulled for not paying attention. Nor have I seen it in volleyball. Basketball, unlike those sports, is a fluid game. A team scores, the other team puts the ball in play and the clock does not stop. There is little time for celebration after a basket and those celebrations that occur during continuation are usually short and sweet. Play continues in basketball and the antics being discussed often happened during live play. The stuff that happened last year was beyond chest thumping. It was full-court antics. I have also said that the behavior was in line with the behavior and antics of the coach. Much of this may change with Cuonzo gone.

I have said it several times that I have no problem with celebration and I don't exactly know where to draw the line. But when celebration gets to the level of doing a "Superman" all the way down the floor during a live ball, yes, it's over the top. That said, if Missouri State fans are good with it, fine. They also get the pleasure of living with the reputation of supporting such behavior. Keep in mind that this fan mentality is akin to fans of a team that support cheap and dirty players. It's the same mentality as, "Maybe he's a thug, but he's our thug."

Then again, I was always a fan of the Hansen Brothers. So drawing the line is and can be difficult.


I'd love to be like them as a school.


WHY???

:huh: :huh: :huh:
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby MoValley John » November 1st, 2011, 8:33 pm

CaseyGarrisonforPrez wrote:
If Missouri State fans get that sort of reputation, then I am completely cool with it. It'll show that we are fun and not a bunch of blue haired squares. I love the enthusiasm of Weems and Creekmore too. If it bothers opposing Valley players so much they can you know stop them and that would shut them up. The fact is that people hate winners and we won the Valley last year. It is nothing more than that really. Weems is a bad dude, so what? This isn't the boy scouts this is division 1 basketball. It's just like the CU fans that were upset when Cuonzo shook hands to hard. Come on... this is competition among men. If it makes us thugs then whatver. They called Miami "Thug U" but they were bad dudes that won. I'd love to be like them as a school.


Huh????
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Re: William Jewell @ MO State Exhibition #2

Postby WSUbballer » November 1st, 2011, 8:34 pm

BEARZ77 wrote:
WSUbballer wrote:If somebody acted like that on another team, you'd be doing the same thing. You're just blindly loyal apparently.


Not really, I don't get too worried about the over exhuberance of young people, certainly not enough to still be crying about it a year later. Yeah if some player is out there undercutting players going to the basket, throwing elbows at head level and generally putting someone elses health in jeopardy, that's something to make note of. But personally I like players who show passion and a little attitude whether that be Kyle Weems or Jamar Howard, as long as it's honest and spontaneous. It's so subjective how we evaluate these things; ever watch a volleyball match. Think how harshly we would label a basketball player who ran around after every single spike or block that led to a point with hands thrust in the air celebrating the way they do in that sport. But who really gives a rip other than some insecure nutjob looking to impose their own set of values on some kid they know nothing about.


Funny. I don't remember many coming to Jamar Howard's aide when he acted the way he did. Isn't that funny how that works?

I respect Weem's game but his showmanship sucks. And unless he has matured more from last year to this year, I expect the same. And you defending it, either shows your blindness to your own players or your values are not as high as others.

I'm not the one parading around this thread with lengthy, essay-long posts every 5 seconds, so please spare me with the insecure crap. I'm telling it like it is and what the league's perception is with him, not just from WSU's side of the fence.

And please refrain from name-calling. It not only adds to your angst and immaturity, but it also is frowned upon here. Perhaps, you need to reread the rules for the website again.
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