Welcome Loyola - Part 2

[rlh04d]

I haven't read most of the gibberish in this thread, but some WSU fans seem to feel that they are being persecuted by the conference and the other schools in the conference. To me this seems like nonsense. Do most WSU fans think this or is it just a few vocal wackos.

Not persecuted. Just that what we want is very different from what the majority wants.

That has nothing to do with persecution. Just frustration with the conference.

[saluki762]

Very soon, if not already, you will begin to see fans, professors and administrators of schools not named WSU hoping for the day that WSU leaves the MVC so that the pressure on them to keep pace is lowered. Back in the day when WSU was winning 14 straight conference titles in baseball, the desire for WSU's program to fall apart or be dismantled was palpable. WSU's exit from the conference would serve the same purpose, allowing lower-paid and lower-performing coaches to hang around longer and decreasing the commitment to higher recruiting budgets, charter flight travel budgets and assistant coach budgets.

This is utter nonsense and I cannot believe for 1 second that your are stupid enough to believe what you typed.

[agrinut]

I understand what you're saying from a purely Wichita State-centric perspective. However, UNI and Drake draw a lot of students from and send many grads to Chicago, as well. So, when you have 7 out of 9 schools in a conference with a clearly vested interest in the Chicago area specifically (which is a heck of lot more of an upfront consensus than the vast majority of conference realignment moves), it's hard to argue with that move when looking at the MVC as a whole. Whether it's fair or not, what Wichita State wants is likely irrelevant (or at least very low on the totem pole) to what the MVC does. They know that Wichita State would leave for the MWC or A-10 if they got the chance, but they also know that there's little chance of Wichita State garnering an invite from either of those leagues, so the rest of the league actually has little incentive to cater to what Wichita State wants. That's kind of weird to think that way considering that Wichita State is certainly the best program left in the MVC and is coming off of a Final Four run, but power on-the-court is not necessarily the same as power off-the-court in conference realignment.

I'm just saying that there are a large number of Wichita State fans on this board, so you are going to see a lot of objections to an addition like Loyola. This shows a disconnect between our goals and the goals of the conference, and it is one of the major non-basketball reasons we desire to leave. Despite the fact that we bring in the dough, have the highest consistent attendance of any remaining member and the most national recognition we have very little say in conference matters.

The fact is WSU is the France of the valley, sure they have nice things but they are completely powerless. If WSU isn't happily in the Valley then they have 2 options Summit or Southland. They command a presence in Wichita but no where else. They have no leverage.

[CaseyGarrisonforPrez]

The fact is WSU is the France of the valley, sure they have nice things but they are completely powerless. If WSU isn't happily in the Valley then they have 2 options Summit or Southland. They command a presence in Wichita but no where else. They have no leverage.

You are spot on in your analysis. The lack of football and unfavorable geography serve as their own Maginot Line. Haha.

Make no mistake, they are riding high right now and their little run in the NCAA Tournament has bought them some degree of national respect. But let's see them translate that to an MWC invite or the WCC or A10 or something like that. Won't be easy.

[saluki762]

The fact is WSU is the France of the valley, sure they have nice things but they are completely powerless. If WSU isn't happily in the Valley then they have 2 options Summit or Southland. They command a presence in Wichita but no where else. They have no leverage.

I think that undersells WSU a little bit but did cause me to laugh out loud.

[CBB_Fan]

I haven't read most of the gibberish in this thread, but some WSU fans seem to feel that they are being persecuted by the conference and the other schools in the conference. To me this seems like nonsense. Do most WSU fans think this or is it just a few vocal wackos.

Persecuted? No. No school in this conference is making decisions to spite Wichita State. All of them are looking out for their own private interests, just like Wichita State is.

The problem is that Wichita State's interests are drifting apart from the bulk of the schools in the Indiana/Illinois region. We want more a more national conference, not the MVC that continually replaces schools with closer regional fits. We want a conference that will help us get stronger and continue to improve our athletics, and the MVC is getting weaker. Etc.

None of this is done because of some spite against Wichita State, but it is still happening. Wichita State may be the strongest/richest program by itself, but they don't have a power group that can affect conference matters. Missouri State would be the closest team to both their ideology and actual location, especially with Creighton gone.

[rlh04d]

The fact is WSU is the France of the valley, sure they have nice things but they are completely powerless. If WSU isn't happily in the Valley then they have 2 options Summit or Southland. They command a presence in Wichita but no where else. They have no leverage.

And what does that make the rest of the teams in the Valley, then? There is no country comparison you can make here ... if you're going to argue that a Valley school is equivalent to Great Britain or Germany, I would laugh in your face.

There is no Valley school other than WSU that has any individual power -- WSU may not have ENOUGH individual power to do anything, but they have more than any other program in the conference. The power of the other programs comes from shared goals with other conference members that leaves both WSU and Missouri State on the outside, controlled by the Illinois/Iowa/Indiana group that are concerned with travel costs.

If anything, at this point, WSU is Gulliver, and the other Valley programs are the Lilliputians.

As for your point about WSU being powerless and having no leverage, we would have said the same thing about Creighton a year ago.

[rlh04d]

Maybe I was wrong about country comparisons not being apt.

I'm sure several programs in the conference would be a good comparison with Greece. Relevant once upon a time, now horribly run, broke, and relying on the success of others to buoy up their existence.

Probably a few other programs that could compare with the Baltic States. In that like them they've never been relevant regardless of what division (Soviet Union/European Union) they're in, with incredibly small demographics.

SIU can be Italy, in that they've been great in the past but leadership struggles have brought them low. UNI as Poland, for the relative success in transferring from the Soviet Union?

I guess we can be France in that scenario.

[frankthetank]

As for your point about WSU being powerless and having no leverage, we would have said the same thing about Creighton a year ago.

Yes and no. It's "yes" in the sense that Creighton did not have an immediate option to move one year ago. However, it's also "no" in the sense that it was reasonably foreseeable that the Big East was going to split up at *some* point (even if it didn't happen this year, it was going to eventually happen), and to give credit where credit is due, Creighton proactively made sure over the past decade to be in place to get an invite to that league as soon as it happened. That was NOT an accident and it did NOT happen by luck. There are actually very few situations where a school elevated itself to the point where it forced itself into conference realignment discussions (as it's typically "you are what you are" in over 90% of schools' cases, so calls for being "proactive" are typically useless), but Creighton is a different situation where it really did completely change its athletic image over the past 10 years both on-the-court and, even more importantly, off-the-court.

In contrast, Wichita State's options are not nearly as reasonably foreseeable. In theory, it's possible that the AAC and MWC could take non-football members, but that seems to be very much a fan-based wish than any real drive from university leaders. In fact, the Big East split is a clear demonstration that conferences don't really want anything to do with hybrids anymore unless your school's name is Notre Dame. That's the difference in leverage. Creighton always had an "in" as a Jesuit school that has incredible attendance, which would have made them attractive to both a split-off Big East or, even if that didn't happen, the A-10. Meanwhile, Wichita State doesn't really fit very well into any league other than, well, the MVC itself. It's not Catholic or even private, so the Big East is off the table. It's not eastern, so the A-10 isn't that interested. It's not western, so the WCC isn't that interested. It doesn't have football, so the MWC and AAC aren't interested. The best way to describe it is that Wichita State is stuck in the middle: stuck geographically in the middle of the country and stuck in the middle as an athletic department as a public university without football.

This is not to take away from *anything* that Wichita State has done on-the-court, which has been phenomenal. I just wanted to make that clear. However, I'm just looking at it from an overall conference realignment perspective, and on the metrics that matter in that regard, Wichita State really doesn't have any viable option to upgrade.

[rlh04d]

Creighton always had an "in" as a Jesuit school that has incredible attendance,

You keep mentioning Creighton's attendance as being a significant positive over Wichita's.

WSU has a smaller arena than Creighton and charges significantly more than Creighton per ticket. I think Creighton has more overall fans (St. Louis ticket sales I believe would imply as much), but there is no doubt that WSU could average a sell out at the 15k Intrust Bank Arena across town if they dropped ticket prices accordingly.

As for Creighton's move not being by luck, it absolutely is, in that if they were not a Jesuit school, they would still be in the MVC. If the ACC hadn't taken Syracuse, Pitt, ND, and Louisville, they would still be in the MVC. If the Big East schools did not break away, they would still be in the MVC. If Butler had not turned itself into such a force in the NCAA tournament, they would probably still be in the MVC. Creighton might have put themselves into a position to capitalize on it once the opportunity presented itself, but a string of events had to happen that were ENTIRELY out of Creighton's control for them to get into a bigger conference (plus one factor that was entirely out of their control to change).