Dan Muller

[LanceShock]

Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.

Fair point. Gregg underachieved as well

Unfortunately that was the season that Matt Braeuer missed 10 games from concussions. We actually returned more than I thought for that season around him ... Couisnard and Thomasson as well. However, I believe those three, JR Preadom (who never really played), and SO Mekel were the only players left when he came in. Pretty amazing how we had no other Sophomores or Juniors on the roster ...

We had a number of JUCO transfers that year as well.

Don't forget about Griskenas going down for over half the season. He was just beginning to get up to D1 speed when his knee was injured. And even when Braeuer came back from the concussion, he wasn't quite the same. Probably due to being cautious about getting another concussion.

Our roster that year was already a little thin before he was injured, especially after Braeuer was also injured. If those two stay healthy, I like the chances the Shockers would have had of finishing at least sixth like they were predicted to finish and staying out of the play in game.

I'll agree it is too early to dismiss Muller. Give him another couple of years to assemble a roster of his players, and we'll see what he can do.

[Mikovio]

Wilkins (one of the better MVC forwards)

Bradley fans are great. Redbird talent fluctuates based on whatever supports the demise of Illinois State.
BTW: Les and Lowery both got to the Sweet 16. If only we could be so lucky...

Really? Maybe I overrate his ability because he always seemed to shoot out of his mind against Bradley (prompting our coaching change... maybe a blessing in disguise) but his bio indicates he did pretty well. He's been one of their best 3 point shooters and would've averaged double figures if he played starter's minutes the whole season. He was key in big wins over Drake and UNI this year. I don't think I'm overstating his abilities by saying he's an above average forward in this league.

http://www.goredbirds.com/sports/m-bask ... 06746.html

2012-13/senior at Illinois State

Played in all 33 games, starting 14 (of ISU's last 15 contests) • Netted 11 points on 4-for-9 shooting in the Valley Tournament win over Northern Iowa (March 8) • Scored a season-best 18 points on 6-for-9 shooting, plus a season-high five free throws to help ISU overcome a 17-point deficit to win at Drake (Feb. 6) • Netted 16 points, including a career-best four three-pointers, in the loss at Bradley (Jan. 29) • Started his first game of the season, scoring nine points with two rebounds in the win at Southern Illinois (Jan. 20) • Collected two steals with 11 points and four rebounds in the loss at Wichita State (Jan. 16) • Netted 14 points with four rebounds in the win over Austin Peay (Dec. 22) • Scored 16 points on a career-best seven field goals in the win over Western Michigan (Dec. 8) • Netted 12 points on 5-for-10 shooting and grabbed three rebounds in the loss to Wyoming (Dec. 4).

2011-12/junior at Illinois State

Started 34 of the 35 games • Posted the first double-double of his career, with a career-best 21 points and 10 rebounds against Rutgers (Nov. 22) • Named to the 2011 Cancun Challenge All-Tournament Team • In the two games played in Cancun, Mexico, averaged 15.5 points and 8.5 rebounds per game • Ejected in the second half of the game against Wichita State (March 3), after drawing his second technical foul • Posted his first double-digit scoring game in four outings with 12 points against Oakland (Feb. 18) • Bounced back from an ankle injury with seven points and seven rebounds in 27 minutes at Indiana State (Feb. 14) • Finished with 10 points against Bradley (Feb. 4) with a 2-for-2 effort on threes • Posted his third double-double of the season against Southern Illinois (Jan. 28) and his second in four games, after scoring 10 points and tying his career-high with 11 rebounds • Scored in double-digits for the first time in five games with 13 points against Indiana State (Jan. 18) and added a career-best 11 rebounds for his second double-double of the season •Named the 2011 Will Robinson Endowed Scholarship recipient.

2010-11/sophomore at Illinois State

Started 17-of-26 games played • Made his Illinois State debut against Jacksonville State (Nov. 28) and scored his first collegiate points, finishing with four • Tossed in eight double-digit scoring efforts, including a season-best 16 points against Montana State (Dec. 4) • Posted an 11-point effort at Bradley (Jan. 26), which included a clutch three-pointer with 38 seconds left in regulation that set up Illinois State's comeback • Led the team in three-pointers made (33) and three-point field goal percentage (.371) • Ended the season with a six-game streak of at least one made three-point field goal • Made at least one trey in 22 games played • Had to miss the first five games of the season, per a ruling by the NCAA , after playing five games with a Belgium professional team.

But even if he wasn't, given the other talent, I still think there's no excuse for finishing 6th. ISU had the talent to finish 3rd, and given WSU's injuries, they probably should have finished 2nd. This has nothing to do with "supporting ISU's demise." I and I think most Bradley fans want ISU to be competitive and the rivalry to be strong (so long as BU gets the upper hand of course).

I know ISU hasn't been to the S16 yet but be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't ask to be lucky enough to endure a lost decade with one bright spot. The S16 seasons seem eons ago for BU and SIU fans.

[Mikovio]

Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.

Right, but that 9-9 team nearly won Arch Madness and then won an NIT game before losing a close one on the road to the eventual NIT champs. They were on fire to end the season and then only lost one player from that team for the next season. Hill stepping in for Moore might've hurt but the table was set for an upper division finish from Muller.

[Redbird Recon]

Wilkins (one of the better MVC forwards)

I don't think I'm overstating his abilities by saying he's an above average forward in this league.

And the subjective backpedaling begins...

[Mikovio]

Wilkins (one of the better MVC forwards)

I don't think I'm overstating his abilities by saying he's an above average forward in this league.

And the subjective backpedaling begins...

Not backpedaling. There's no substantial difference between "one of the better" and "above average." Address the issue. You're trying to run down your old team to give Muller a pass. If anyone is pushing a program to its demise, it's fans who want to give coaches a pass because they're alums.

[Redbird Recon]

Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.

Right, but that 9-9 team nearly won Arch Madness and then won an NIT game before losing a close one on the road to the eventual NIT champs. They were on fire to end the season and then only lost one player from that team for the next season. Hill stepping in for Moore might've hurt but the table was set for an upper division finish from Muller.

Might've?
Creighton: 79-83 OT L - 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds
Ole Miss: 96-93 W - 24 points, 10 assists, 2 steals
Stanford: 88-92 L - 25 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists

[Mikovio]

Points of reference for the discussion:
Gregg inherited an 8-10 team predicted to place 6th. They finished 9th at 4-14.
Muller inherited a 9-9 team predicted to place 2nd. They finished 6th at 8-10.

Right, but that 9-9 team nearly won Arch Madness and then won an NIT game before losing a close one on the road to the eventual NIT champs. They were on fire to end the season and then only lost one player from that team for the next season. Hill stepping in for Moore might've hurt but the table was set for an upper division finish from Muller.

Might've?
Creighton: 79-83 OT L - 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds
Ole Miss: 96-93 W - 24 points, 10 assists, 2 steals
Stanford: 88-92 L - 25 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists

You're conveniently leaving out the first couple Arch Madness rounds. Their biggest win of all and most impressive showing was over MVC champ and #15 Wichita in the semis and there Moore only scored 12 points with 3 assists. (Tyler Brown led the team in that one with 25 points.) In the quarters they beat 3 seed UNI and Moore only had 8 points and 1 assist (Carmichael scored 16 with 15 rebounds). Those my friend are very Johnny Hill-like numbers (Hill scored 11 points in ISU's win over UNI in this year's quarters) and the team was more balanced than you let on.

[Redbird Recon]

Creighton: 79-83 OT L - 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds
Ole Miss: 96-93 W - 24 points, 10 assists, 2 steals
Stanford: 88-92 L - 25 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists

You're leaving out the first couple Arch Madness rounds. Their biggest win of all was over MVC champ and #15 Wichita and there he only scored 12 points with 3 assists. (Tyler Brown led the team in that one with 25 points.) In the quarters they beat 3 seed UNI and Moore only had 8 points and 1 assist (Carmichael scored 16 with 15 rebounds). Those my friend are very Johnny Hill-like numbers (Hill scored 11 points in ISU's win over UNI in this year's quarters) and the team was more balanced than you let on.

Only 12 & 3...
They were balanced, because they had a good point guard.

[Mikovio]

Creighton: 79-83 OT L - 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds
Ole Miss: 96-93 W - 24 points, 10 assists, 2 steals
Stanford: 88-92 L - 25 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists

You're leaving out the first couple Arch Madness rounds. Their biggest win of all was over MVC champ and #15 Wichita and there he only scored 12 points with 3 assists. (Tyler Brown led the team in that one with 25 points.) In the quarters they beat 3 seed UNI and Moore only had 8 points and 1 assist (Carmichael scored 16 with 15 rebounds). Those my friend are very Johnny Hill-like numbers (Hill scored 11 points in ISU's win over UNI in this year's quarters) and the team was more balanced than you let on.

Only 12 & 3...
They were balanced, because they had a good point guard.

Hill averaged 7 and 3 last year and had plenty of similar games.

They were balanced because they had good players. The point guard was a good player, but not close to their best. I do think that Moore was better than Hill, but Hill wasn't chopped liver, and the dropoff from Moore to Hill hardly explains away why a team with the most talented (non-McD) player in the Valley in years (according to NBA scouts), plus another all-Valley player, plus a better than average (how's that?) forward, plus a guy who Groce offered a scholarship, who all had years of playing together, managed to finish 6th.

Again, I agree it's too early to judge Muller. But arguing that last year's ISU Red team didn't underachieve and that the talent wasn't there is a joke.

[Redbird Recon]

I agree it was an underachieving season, but some of that was self-imposed. We gave Drake and Bradley a win. 10-8 gets an NIT bid. That's not too shabby for a team that didn't 'buy in.'