What big man would want to play in the MVC?

[pantherrob82]

here's my gripe on the big men foul calling that drives me nuts becuase it happens to the shocker big guys a lot:

Big man on defense stands firm on his spot between the opposing big man and basket with his hands straight up in the air. The opposing big man gets the ball and starts trying to push him back with his butt, ala Charles Barkley. Then the guy with the ball turns and leans into the big man while shooting. The ball gets knocked loose because the shooter literally scrapes his own arms across the defenders torso and the defender gets called for a foul. What the heck is supposed to do? Step back and let the guy shoot it? Is this really a foul when he just stood his ground with his arms in the air? I can't tell you how many times Stutz has been called for that foul.

[MoValley John]

I don't know if I were a true "Big Man" that I would want to play in the Valley.While the Valley uses the same officials as everybody else, the officials do get directives from teh league office on wht that want emphasized and so the same official that calls a Big 10, Big XII or ACC game will call a Valley game differently. The officiating in the non-conference was different than the officiating has been during the conference season.

I can see Creighton fans being very upset with how the referees are neutering Echineque, but as was said before, they are doing it to Teague as well. And while I understand the "A foul is a foul" Echineque and Teague don't get the same treatment back with "A foul is a foul." Defenders are allowed to hack, push, elbow and body Echineque and Teague as they go to the basket with no foul being called- it takes significant contact against those two for the refs to blow a whistle, if a foul is a foul, that should be called as well and it's not being called that way.

So, while I see all sides on this, fans of schools without a large, dominating big, relishing the way calls are being made, while Creighton fans are pissed because the refs don't let Echineque play. However, the one real danger in all of this is that the way the refs are officiating in the league, the Valley will always be a "guard oriented league." If true bigs aren't allowed to play as true bigs here, why on earth would they ever sign to play for a Valley school? The end result could be that the seven foot, physical monster, the guy who has the choice of trying to develop his "potential" at a BCS school, or being an immediate star at a mid, chooses to sign and sit at Nebraska, Colorado or Iowa, rather than sign and play at Creighton, UNI, Wichita State or Bradley. This has a chilling effect on recruitment.

Put simply, you hinder the recruitment of all bigs in the future, at all Valley schools, when you don't allow the few true bigs we currently have in this league to play as bigs. Recruits do watch basketball and how games are called.

[uniftw]

The officiating was terrible last night both ways.

Kerwin and Jake Koch got called for some bull crap fouls when they were completely straight up and got jumped into, and D$ Fresh got away with a lot in terms of using forearms and elbows to clear space.

On the other side GE had one or two fouls that shouldn't have been called, Lucas probably should have had one or two more,


AND both coaches should have been T'ed up.



Speaking of coaches and officiating....How the hell does G$ get ref's to listen to him bitch all game long after chasing them across the court on a TO, but the one time Jake tries to talk to an official he yells at him to get back to the huddle and backs away from him?

[blueblood]

"On the other side GE had one or two fouls that shouldn't have been called, Lucas probably should have had one or two more"

You do realize Echinique missed over half of the game due to fouls and then fouled out right? You do realize Lucas played most of the game and if he had one or two more he would have fouled out with 10 minutes left in the game right?

Read the thread. The point isn't refs were bad both ways.

[unipanther99]

Speaking of coaches and officiating....How the hell does G$ get ref's to listen to him bitch all game long after chasing them across the court on a TO, but the one time Jake tries to talk to an official he yells at him to get back to the huddle and backs away from him?

Lets not get carried away. Jake was working the refs early and often. They had enough and didn't want to allow Jake to make a scene during a time out. That's exactly what led to Greg getting his bench warning as well.

Would you want to be in the middle of this?

[RoyalShock]

here's my gripe on the big men foul calling that drives me nuts becuase it happens to the shocker big guys a lot:

Big man on defense stands firm on his spot between the opposing big man and basket with his hands straight up in the air. The opposing big man gets the ball and starts trying to push him back with his butt, ala Charles Barkley. Then the guy with the ball turns and leans into the big man while shooting. The ball gets knocked loose because the shooter literally scrapes his own arms across the defenders torso and the defender gets called for a foul. What the heck is supposed to do? Step back and let the guy shoot it? Is this really a foul when he just stood his ground with his arms in the air? I can't tell you how many times Stutz has been called for that foul.

I don't like that either, but here is what I think happens. First, the defender's arms are RARELY straight up. Stutz ALWAYS has his arms leaning forward a bit. Yes, it feels like they are straight up, but they aren't. Consequently, when the official sees the ball dislodged from the shooter's hands he doesn't identify what actually cause it, but sees a defender with his arms not quite vertical and whistles the foul. Lazy officiating. I know it's a tough job, but at least be willing to make the call the right way, not just the way your cohorts are calling it.

I think any time the shooter initiates the contact (meaning he moved into space occupied by the defender) it ought to be at least a no-call. Stop bailing out shooters and punishing good defense.

SubGod, can you enlighten us as to how the rules read?

[SubGod22]

I'm with you Royal. I HATE seeing officials call fouls when the offensive player innitiates all contact. It drives me NUTS. The defense is entitled to their spot. That doesn't mean thier feet have to be set or even on the floor. I know around here, we're told to officiate the D. If the Offensive player moves into them its offensive or a no-call. Most likely a no-call unless there's a lot of contact. Mistakes will happen, but a lot of what's being talked about on this thread are legit concerns that are too often screwed up in my opinion. No official is perfect, even me, but we should get it right most of the time. And technically, if an offensive player displaces/backs down a defender it's an offensive foul but not going to be called and I get that. But if that's the case, when the defender tries to hold thier ground, they SHOULD NOT, be called for a foul. And that happens even more than the "verticallity" issue in the case of Stutz. Bailing out shooters is not something that should be done.

Does that answer your question? If not, I'll try again. I don't have my rule books in front of me to give you exact definitions, but that's a pretty good general explaination I believe.

[RoyalShock]

That's good enough.

On the issue of backing down the defender, it's made more difficult in that usually the defender is also moving his feet, thereby giving up ground when contact is made. If he doesn't move his feet the player with the ball will just go right around him. It's a tough situation for a defender and official. But IMO, it should usually be an offensive foul, since he's gaining an advantage from the contact.

[SubGod22]

That's good enough.

On the issue of backing down the defender, it's made more difficult in that usually the defender is also moving his feet, thereby giving up ground when contact is made. If he doesn't move his feet the player with the ball will just go right around him. It's a tough situation for a defender and official. But IMO, it should usually be an offensive foul, since he's gaining an advantage from the contact.

I know college is a bit different, but when displacement occurs, technically, it's a foul. If they're going to let them back down, then they shouldn't call the foul when the defender stands his ground and stops giving. I think a lot of players won't keep their feet stationary and fall down because odds are they're not going to get the call. Feet can be moving and still have legal guarding position. So you can still draw offensive fouls that way.

It's not an easy game to officiate as there are a lot of gray areas. Not all contact is a foul, so determining how much/when it is, is left to the judgment of 3 human beings.....in most cases. I'm just tired of seeing the defense punished when the other guy initiates it all.

[acesfool]

The new elbow rule is really making it hard to be a big man in college. You're criticized if you bring the ball down where the refs think little guys should get all the free wacks they want, and you're in jeopardy of a technical or flagrant foul if you keep the ball high while making a normal basketball move. If you are going to reach in or put your head some where it doesn't belong an elbow is something you are just asking for. I went to the UE game last night and the new elbow rule totally turned the game around. The kid on USI did exactly what you are supposed to do on a rebound and was penalized because a player was taking a cheap slap after the rebound. I hate to say it but if you're going to slap after every rebound you deserve an elbow to the head every now and then.