Welcome Loyola - Part 2

[brianbown]

Tired of the CU, WSU fixation. I'm interested in the future. Loyola in the league brings new visibility in the huge Chicago market. Which means all valley teams benefit. I'd like to see the tournament move to Chicago which would bring in huge attendance.

[frankthetank]

Creighton always had an "in" as a Jesuit school that has incredible attendance,

You keep mentioning Creighton's attendance as being a significant positive over Wichita's.

WSU has a smaller arena than Creighton and charges significantly more than Creighton per ticket. I think Creighton has more overall fans (St. Louis ticket sales I believe would imply as much), there is absolutely no doubt that WSU could average a sell out at the 15k Intrust Bank Arena across town if they dropped ticket prices accordingly.

As for Creighton's move not being by luck, it absolutely is, in that if they were not a Jesuit school, they would still be in the MVC. If the ACC hadn't taken Syracuse, Pitt, ND, and Louisville, they would still be in the MVC. If the Big East schools did not break away, they would still be in the MVC. If Butler had not turned itself into such a force in the NCAA tournament, they would probably still be in the MVC. Creighton might have put themselves into a position to capitalize on it once the opportunity presented itself, but a string of events had to happen that were ENTIRELY out of Creighton's control for them to get into a bigger conference (plus one factor that was entirely out of their control to change).

That's all you can ask for from a school: put yourself into position to move up when the opportunity arises. However, I highly disagree that there was any luck to this. What Creighton was aiming for wasn't some sort of complete pipe dream or a hope that a conference completely goes against what it has done in other realignment decisions. Look back at their initial decision to move to CenturyLink Center in the first place - it was done in anticipation of the formation of an urban Catholic league at some point. They might not have been able to predict exactly when that was going to happen, but they had a fairly good sense that it *would* eventually happen. Every person following conference realignment has been waiting for that day for many years - it was just a matter of what would be the trigger. That's what I mean by it being reasonably foreseeable. In contrast, there's nothing reasonably foreseeable about the AAC or MWC adding hybrid members or the Big East wanting any public school members (with the possible exception of VCU).

As for attendance, maybe Wichita State needs to trumpet what you're stating about higher ticket prices, but what the entire nation sees is a Creighton program that is in the top 10 of attendance playing an MVC schedule and that is REALLY impressive no matter what the ticket prices might be. And no, I don't think anyone can assume that Wichita State can move to a bigger arena and sell it out year-to-year. Sure, you might be able to bank on that next year coming off of a Final Four run, but that eventually dissipates. Even most Big Ten and ACC programs with massive fan bases and students on-campus would have a hard time keeping up with Creighton's attendance numbers even with discounted tickets, so yes, it is absolutely impressive. The difference between getting 10,000 to 12,000 people every single night and 17,000 people every night is actually very difficult even with low ticket prices.

[Wufan]

Tired of the CU, WSU fixation. I'm interested in the future.

Agreed.

Loyola in the league brings new visibility in the huge Chicago market. Which means all valley teams benefit.

Very small fish in a very big pond and adds the vast majority of any perceived benefit to the Illinois / Indiana schools.

I'd like to see the tournament move to Chicago which would bring in huge attendance.

WSU already traveled the furthest to St. Louis BY FAR, and if any of the Illinois schools can't manage that little trek then I don't know what to tell you.

[Wufan]

Creighton always had an "in" as a Jesuit school that has incredible attendance,

You keep mentioning Creighton's attendance as being a significant positive over Wichita's.

WSU has a smaller arena than Creighton and charges significantly more than Creighton per ticket. I think Creighton has more overall fans (St. Louis ticket sales I believe would imply as much), there is absolutely no doubt that WSU could average a sell out at the 15k Intrust Bank Arena across town if they dropped ticket prices accordingly.

As for Creighton's move not being by luck, it absolutely is, in that if they were not a Jesuit school, they would still be in the MVC. If the ACC hadn't taken Syracuse, Pitt, ND, and Louisville, they would still be in the MVC. If the Big East schools did not break away, they would still be in the MVC. If Butler had not turned itself into such a force in the NCAA tournament, they would probably still be in the MVC. Creighton might have put themselves into a position to capitalize on it once the opportunity presented itself, but a string of events had to happen that were ENTIRELY out of Creighton's control for them to get into a bigger conference (plus one factor that was entirely out of their control to change).

That's all you can ask for from a school: put yourself into position to move up when the opportunity arises. However, I highly disagree that there was any luck to this. What Creighton was aiming for wasn't some sort of complete pipe dream or a hope that a conference completely goes against what it has done in other realignment decisions. Look back at their initial decision to move to CenturyLink Center in the first place - it was done in anticipation of the formation of an urban Catholic league at some point. They might not have been able to predict exactly when that was going to happen, but they had a fairly good sense that it *would* eventually happen. Every person following conference realignment has been waiting for that day for many years - it was just a matter of what would be the trigger. That's what I mean by it being reasonably foreseeable. In contrast, there's nothing reasonably foreseeable about the AAC or MWC adding hybrid members or the Big East wanting any public school members (with the possible exception of VCU).

As for attendance, maybe Wichita State needs to trumpet what you're stating about higher ticket prices, but what the entire nation sees is a Creighton program that is in the top 10 of attendance playing an MVC schedule and that is REALLY impressive no matter what the ticket prices might be. And no, I don't think anyone can assume that Wichita State can move to a bigger arena and sell it out year-to-year. Sure, you might be able to bank on that next year coming off of a Final Four run, but that eventually dissipates. Even most Big Ten and ACC programs with massive fan bases and students on-campus would have a hard time keeping up with Creighton's attendance numbers even with discounted tickets, so yes, it is absolutely impressive. The difference between getting 10,000 to 12,000 people every single night and 17,000 people every night is actually very difficult even with low ticket prices.

You are vastly underestimating. It costs $25.00 to sit on the A/C duct at a WSU game even when they win less than 10 games a year…and we still put 8000 in the seats EVERY game. Meanwhile, it's $5.00 to attend a Creighton game.

[rlh04d]

As for attendance, maybe Wichita State needs to trumpet what you're stating about higher ticket prices, but what the entire nation sees is a Creighton program that is in the top 10 of attendance playing an MVC schedule and that is REALLY impressive no matter what the ticket prices might be. And no, I don't think anyone can assume that Wichita State can move to a bigger arena and sell it out year-to-year. Sure, you might be able to bank on that next year coming off of a Final Four run, but that eventually dissipates. Even most Big Ten and ACC programs with massive fan bases and students on-campus would have a hard time keeping up with Creighton's attendance numbers even with discounted tickets, so yes, it is absolutely impressive. The difference between getting 10,000 to 12,000 people every single night and 17,000 people every night is actually very difficult even with low ticket prices.

You seem to be ignoring every fundamental of basic economics here.

If a school averages 20k seats a game but the tickets are free, that is not impressive. WSU charges SIGNIFICANTLY more than Creighton in every category. There are pretty clear reasons why WSU brings in more revenue than Creighton despite averaging 6k less fans per game.

I'm not arguing that Creighton's numbers are not impressive -- I'm arguing that WSU's numbers would likely be very comparable if they charged the prices they do and were willing to play at Intrust rather than on campus. To do so they would have to lose one of the best environments in college basketball, though, as well as renting an off-campus arena rather than utilizing the on-campus arena they already own. Off-campus arenas generally are not preferable to anyone, for a variety of reasons.

And no, WSU was already charging significantly more than Creighton without the Final Four run. Meanwhile our ticket prices will take another big jump next year, and Creighton's will continue to stay at the same level. At a guess, I would say Creighton might have averaged 11-12k fans with the same prices that WSU charged last year. Meanwhile, WSU was averaging over 8k a game when we were finishing below .500 for a decade straight in the 90s, and we've been averaging a near-sellout for the last decade straight.

You're essentially arguing perception rather than economics, which is just that people are too lazy to look past the average attendance as a set figure. Apparently Creighton has roughly three times the fans of Duke as well. Your point is apparently that WSU should seek to maximize the appearance of a fan base for realignment purposes rather than maximizing revenue, purely because random bloggers are too lazy to consider all of the factors that go into attendance. I highly doubt university presidents are looking at attendance figures without considering ticket prices and revenue.

There are three fundamental differences between Creighton and Wichita:
- Jesuit/Private vs Public
- More NCAA trips vs More NCAA wins
- Academics

I see no discernible differences outside of that. And while two of those are likely very important in Creighton getting into the Big East, most of what you're arguing is revisionist history or very selective points made on perception with little actual insight into their program.

[rlh04d]

Tired of the CU, WSU fixation. I'm interested in the future. Loyola in the league brings new visibility in the huge Chicago market. Which means all valley teams benefit. I'd like to see the tournament move to Chicago which would bring in huge attendance.

I guess that would be a future. Just not a good future.

I'm assuming by "huge attendance" you mean that Wichita fans will stop going to the tournament, which would be the largest fanbase by far in St. Louis, and you'll be relying on SIU, Illinois State, Loyola, and Bradley to fill the stands, and three of those are likely to be Thursday teams next year.

[frankthetank]

Quite to the contrary, I keep emphasizing the economic and demographic big picture concerns (which is why Loyola was added) as opposed to trying to find a school that was 25 or 50 spots better in the RPI last year and thinking that expansion should be based on that criteria. You're trying to position Wichita State's revenue and attendance in the best light possible, which is understandable. I think you're severely discounting Creighton's numbers, though. There are a lot of schools that can claim to be in Wichita State's position ("We're sold out with max donations and high ticket prices and could sell 5000 more seats if we had a bigger place!"). I've heard that from countless fan bases (both for football and basketball) in conference realignment over the past 3 years. Now, it might be the case that Wichita State can actually do it. That's all and well and good. However, just know that lots of schools claim the same type of support. Of course university presidents look at overall revenue generation and Creighton certainly wasn't a paper tiger (as evidenced by how they traveled to the MVC Tournament).

Regardless, the attendance is a minor point compared to institutional fit with respect to the Big East and Creighton, so on that level, I agree that being private/Catholic helped Creighton out immensely in this regard. To be fair, it also wasn't the be all/end all, either (or else Duquesne would have ended up in the Big East).

[shoxrox]

Creighton always had an "in" as a Jesuit school that has incredible attendance,

You keep mentioning Creighton's attendance as being a significant positive over Wichita's.

WSU has a smaller arena than Creighton and charges significantly more than Creighton per ticket. I think Creighton has more overall fans (St. Louis ticket sales I believe would imply as much), there is absolutely no doubt that WSU could average a sell out at the 15k Intrust Bank Arena across town if they dropped ticket prices accordingly.

As for Creighton's move not being by luck, it absolutely is, in that if they were not a Jesuit school, they would still be in the MVC. If the ACC hadn't taken Syracuse, Pitt, ND, and Louisville, they would still be in the MVC. If the Big East schools did not break away, they would still be in the MVC. If Butler had not turned itself into such a force in the NCAA tournament, they would probably still be in the MVC. Creighton might have put themselves into a position to capitalize on it once the opportunity presented itself, but a string of events had to happen that were ENTIRELY out of Creighton's control for them to get into a bigger conference (plus one factor that was entirely out of their control to change).

That's all you can ask for from a school: put yourself into position to move up when the opportunity arises. However, I highly disagree that there was any luck to this. What Creighton was aiming for wasn't some sort of complete pipe dream or a hope that a conference completely goes against what it has done in other realignment decisions. Look back at their initial decision to move to CenturyLink Center in the first place - it was done in anticipation of the formation of an urban Catholic league at some point. They might not have been able to predict exactly when that was going to happen, but they had a fairly good sense that it *would* eventually happen. Every person following conference realignment has been waiting for that day for many years - it was just a matter of what would be the trigger. That's what I mean by it being reasonably foreseeable. In contrast, there's nothing reasonably foreseeable about the AAC or MWC adding hybrid members or the Big East wanting any public school members (with the possible exception of VCU).

As for attendance, maybe Wichita State needs to trumpet what you're stating about higher ticket prices, but what the entire nation sees is a Creighton program that is in the top 10 of attendance playing an MVC schedule and that is REALLY impressive no matter what the ticket prices might be. And no, I don't think anyone can assume that Wichita State can move to a bigger arena and sell it out year-to-year. Sure, you might be able to bank on that next year coming off of a Final Four run, but that eventually dissipates. Even most Big Ten and ACC programs with massive fan bases and students on-campus would have a hard time keeping up with Creighton's attendance numbers even with discounted tickets, so yes, it is absolutely impressive. The difference between getting 10,000 to 12,000 people every single night and 17,000 people every night is actually very difficult even with low ticket prices.

You from Omaha, Frank?

The reason 17,000 fill the stands in Omaha is because the prices are cheap and it is a grand social hour that 95% of the people could care less what's happening on the court.

It's as simple as that.

WSU could do the same thing if they had to rent space for a bigger venue, lower the ticket prices, and lessen the college basketball experience and atmosphere.

[IllinoisState]

WSU already traveled the furthest to St. Louis BY FAR, and if any of the Illinois schools can't manage that little trek then I don't know what to tell you.

That's not the point.

Chicagoland has a population of ~10,000,000 people. St. Louis has a metropolitan population of 2,900,000 and no professional basketball team. Which one do you think would bring you more fans?

WSU could do the same thing if they had to rent space for a bigger venue, lower the ticket prices, and lessen the college basketball experience and atmosphere.

So higher prices = more of a basketball experience.

[shoxrox]

So higher prices = more of a basketball experience.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.