Welcome Loyola - Part 2

[frankthetank]

You from Omaha, Frank?

The reason 17,000 fill the stands in Omaha is because the prices are cheap and it is a grand social hour that 95% of the people could care less what's happening on the court.

It's as simple as that.

WSU could do the same thing if they had to rent space for a bigger venue, lower the ticket prices, and lessen the college basketball experience and atmosphere.

That's completely disingenuous. If it were that easy, there is a long list of schools in towns that are about the same size as Omaha that would be able to do the same thing. Heck, there is a long list of schools with much larger enrollments than Creighton that actually do give out free or virtually free tickets to students and can't get that type of attendance. You can keep discounting the value of the attendance figures at Creighton, but it absolutely impressed people nationally and it enhanced their brand as a major basketball school (and not merely a local niche school that has had a couple of random NCAA Tournament runs). If you think it didn't matter to the people running the Big East in choosing the less geographically friendly Creighton over SLU and Dayton in this first round of expansion (which, if you look back at the historical threads on this very board, you'll see tons of people claiming that Creighton was too far west for the Big East), I don't know what to tell you.

Bottom line: if Creighton was able to change the perception of its school nationally with both university presidents and casual fans in a fairly dramatic fashion in a relatively short period of time (and I believe the school did just that), then maybe that's a model for schools to start following instead of pooh-poohing. The on-the-court performance is only one part of the equation (which can't be emphasized enough). This is especially true of any school that isn't blessed with a great geographic location (unlike, say, Loyola).

[matter_of_fact]

shoxrox, you seem to be able to quote alot of "facts" about CU ticket prices, etc. You from Omaha?

[Jet915]

You from Omaha, Frank?

The reason 17,000 fill the stands in Omaha is because the prices are cheap and it is a grand social hour that 95% of the people could care less what's happening on the court.

It's as simple as that.

WSU could do the same thing if they had to rent space for a bigger venue, lower the ticket prices, and lessen the college basketball experience and atmosphere.

That's completely disingenuous. If it were that easy, there is a long list of schools in towns that are about the same size as Omaha that would be able to do the same thing. Heck, there is a long list of schools with much larger enrollments than Creighton that actually do give out free or virtually free tickets to students and can't get that type of attendance. You can keep discounting the value of the attendance figures at Creighton, but it absolutely impressed people nationally and it enhanced their brand as a major basketball school (and not merely a local niche school that has had a couple of random NCAA Tournament runs). If you think it didn't matter to the people running the Big East in choosing the less geographically friendly Creighton over SLU and Dayton in this first round of expansion (which, if you look back at the historical threads on this very board, you'll see tons of people claiming that Creighton was too far west for the Big East), I don't know what to tell you.

Bottom line: if Creighton was able to change the perception of its school nationally with both university presidents and casual fans in a fairly dramatic fashion in a relatively short period of time (and I believe the school did just that), then maybe that's a model for schools to start following instead of pooh-poohing. The on-the-court performance is only one part of the equation (which can't be emphasized enough). This is especially true of any school that isn't blessed with a great geographic location (unlike, say, Loyola).

Frank, although commendable, it's hopeless trying to argue with Shocker fans. They could have played their games at Intrust, they could have raised their ticket prices, they could have done this, done that, but they DIDN'T. Meanwhile, Creighton has over 13,000 season ticket holders and rising (no, season tickets are NOT free). There is actually a possibility we might "cap" season tickets to 15,000 next year to allow for enough people to walk up and buy tickets. Alot of them are frustrated that they are in the MVC and rightfully so, other than maybe Bradley, not many of the other Valley teams put much resources into their basketball.

[rlh04d]

Frank, although commendable, it's hopeless trying to argue with Shocker fans. They could have played their games at Intrust, they could have raised their ticket prices, they could have done this, done that, but they DIDN'T. Meanwhile, Creighton has over 13,000 season ticket holders and rising (no, season tickets are NOT free). There is actually a possibility we might "cap" season tickets to 15,000 next year to allow for enough people to walk up and buy tickets. Alot of them are frustrated that they are in the MVC and rightfully so, other than maybe Bradley, not many of the other Valley teams put much resources into their basketball.

The grown-ups are having a logical discussion. If you can't be bothered to actually learn what you're talking about rather than just mischaracterizing arguments to take cheap shots, kindly go play at the kids' table.

[rlh04d]

Quite to the contrary, I keep emphasizing the economic and demographic big picture concerns (which is why Loyola was added) as opposed to trying to find a school that was 25 or 50 spots better in the RPI last year and thinking that expansion should be based on that criteria. You're trying to position Wichita State's revenue and attendance in the best light possible, which is understandable. I think you're severely discounting Creighton's numbers, though. There are a lot of schools that can claim to be in Wichita State's position ("We're sold out with max donations and high ticket prices and could sell 5000 more seats if we had a bigger place!"). I've heard that from countless fan bases (both for football and basketball) in conference realignment over the past 3 years. Now, it might be the case that Wichita State can actually do it. That's all and well and good. However, just know that lots of schools claim the same type of support. Of course university presidents look at overall revenue generation and Creighton certainly wasn't a paper tiger (as evidenced by how they traveled to the MVC Tournament).

Regardless, the attendance is a minor point compared to institutional fit with respect to the Big East and Creighton, so on that level, I agree that being private/Catholic helped Creighton out immensely in this regard. To be fair, it also wasn't the be all/end all, either (or else Duquesne would have ended up in the Big East).

Again, this is simple economics. Basketball tickets are a good. Supply and demand factors in to determine the price of that good. If the price rises because of a fixed quantity of that good (as in having a set stadium size) and the demand does not fall, that is because there is unsatisfied demand for the good. Were WSU to have more seats (goods), the unsatisfied demand would then be met at a given price. If the price falls, given a fairly inelastic demand (one not influenced by a sudden drop in the quality of the program), more goods (tickets) get sold. There are people who will buy the good at a lower price than it is currently being offered at -- if Koch Arena went to 12k capacity tomorrow, it would sell out, if prices were lowered accordingly. If it went to 14k capacity tomorrow, the same thing would happen.

And you would continue this exponentially until you see how many fans would show up if the game is free. Obviously there is a cap on how many fans are going to show up regardless of the price, but to argue that price has no impact on attendance figures is ignorant of all economic principles.

I am not discounting Creighton's fanbase. In fact, I'm even saying they have a bigger fanbase than WSU, basing that on the number of tickets sold for Arch Madness, which I believe Creighton regularly leads. I am only stating that you're discounting WSU's fanbase in comparison. This isn't about slamming Creighton's attendance ... economics state that their attendance figures would go down if they charged more and go up if they charged less, but regardless they have excellent attendance figures, and better than most in the country. They certainly had the best attendance of any non-Power 6 program in the country. However, they do not have three times the fans of Duke, which is what a generic comparison of average attendance the way you're doing it would imply. Creighton averages 16.6k a game ... Duke averages 9k. Don't pay attention to the fact that Creighton charges $200 for season tickets while Duke charges $7k. Clearly they're comparable. Obviously that's the extreme and WSU is in no way comparable to Duke in that scenario, but it clearly shows that attendance figures not only are the most important factor but they aren't even relevant sometimes. Duke would sell out a 17k arena easily.

And there is no one here who would ever say that Duquesne is a better add than Creighton. Again, this has nothing to do with Creighton being a bad add or not having great attendance figures, it's with you devaluing WSU's numbers. This has nothing to do with Creighton having less fans than they're showing. I'm only stating that comparing fanbases based on average attendance without taking into account arena size or ticket prices is an incredibly flawed metric. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

[Jet915]

Quite to the contrary, I keep emphasizing the economic and demographic big picture concerns (which is why Loyola was added) as opposed to trying to find a school that was 25 or 50 spots better in the RPI last year and thinking that expansion should be based on that criteria. You're trying to position Wichita State's revenue and attendance in the best light possible, which is understandable. I think you're severely discounting Creighton's numbers, though. There are a lot of schools that can claim to be in Wichita State's position ("We're sold out with max donations and high ticket prices and could sell 5000 more seats if we had a bigger place!"). I've heard that from countless fan bases (both for football and basketball) in conference realignment over the past 3 years. Now, it might be the case that Wichita State can actually do it. That's all and well and good. However, just know that lots of schools claim the same type of support. Of course university presidents look at overall revenue generation and Creighton certainly wasn't a paper tiger (as evidenced by how they traveled to the MVC Tournament).

Regardless, the attendance is a minor point compared to institutional fit with respect to the Big East and Creighton, so on that level, I agree that being private/Catholic helped Creighton out immensely in this regard. To be fair, it also wasn't the be all/end all, either (or else Duquesne would have ended up in the Big East).

Again, this is simple economics. Basketball tickets are a good. Supply and demand factors in to determine the price of that good. If the price rises because of a fixed quantity of that good (as in having a set stadium size) and the demand does not fall, that is because there is unsatisfied demand for the good. Were WSU to have more seats (goods), the unsatisfied demand would then be met at a given price. If the price falls, given a fairly inelastic demand (one not influenced by a sudden drop in the quality of the program), more goods (tickets) get sold. There are people who will buy the good at a lower price than it is currently being offered at -- if Koch Arena went to 12k capacity tomorrow, it would sell out, if prices were lowered accordingly. If it went to 14k capacity tomorrow, the same thing would happen.

And you would continue this exponentially until you see how many fans would show up if the game is free. Obviously there is a cap on how many fans are going to show up regardless of the price, but to argue that price has no impact on attendance figures is ignorant of all economic principles.

I am not discounting Creighton's fanbase. In fact, I'm even saying they have a bigger fanbase than WSU, basing that on the number of tickets sold for Arch Madness, which I believe Creighton regularly leads. I am only stating that you're discounting WSU's fanbase in comparison. This isn't about slamming Creighton's attendance ... economics state that their attendance figures would go down if they charged more and go up if they charged less, but regardless they have excellent attendance figures, and better than most in the country. They certainly had the best attendance of any non-Power 6 program in the country. However, they do not have three times the fans of Duke, which is what a generic comparison of average attendance the way you're doing it would imply. Creighton averages 16.6k a game ... Duke averages 9k. Don't pay attention to the fact that Creighton charges $200 for season tickets while Duke charges $7k. Clearly they're comparable. Obviously that's the extreme and WSU is in no way comparable to Duke in that scenario, but it clearly shows that attendance figures not only are the most important factor but they aren't even relevant sometimes. Duke would sell out a 17k arena easily.

And there is no one here who would ever say that Duquesne is a better add than Creighton. Again, this has nothing to do with Creighton being a bad add or not having great attendance figures, it's with you devaluing WSU's numbers. This has nothing to do with Creighton having less fans than they're showing. I'm only stating that comparing fanbases based on average attendance without taking into account arena size or ticket prices is an incredibly flawed metric. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

Apparently, you don't follow your own advice and like to mischaracterize yourself. Creighton's entire lower bowl is sold out and the cheapest tickets range from 320 and 710 dollars a seat and that DOES NOT include the required Jaybacker donation for that seat which ranges from a few hundred to several thousand per seat. The Jaybacker donations exceeded 3.3 million two years ago. The 200 dollars is for upper bowl non-mezzanine seats only which is only a fraction of the seats at CLink and the only ones available as all other seats are SOLD OUT.

Wichita State season tickets range from 275-330 dollars. So you continually mischaracterize Creighton's "cheap" tickets, yet on average, Creighton's season tickets are more expensive. You still say that if Wichita's tickets were as cheap as Creighton's, they'd sell more tickets.....BS.

http://www.gocreighton.com/fls/1000/pdf/12_13mbbnonrenewalbrochure.pdf?SPSID=92271&SPID=86&DB_OEM_ID=1000
http://www.nmnathletics.com/fls/7500/Ticket%20Prices12-13.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=7500

[IllinoisState]

So higher prices = more of a basketball experience.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

It was part of your argument.

[Wufan]

So higher prices = more of a basketball experience.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

It was part of your argument.

Not to be argumentative, but I believe his logic was that there was more demand for Shocker tickets than for Creighton tickets and that is why they cost more. One thing that caused the higher demand was the better atmosphere, so you could state, from a logic standpoint, that "better experience sometimes causes higher prices." Not, "higher prices always cause a better experience."

Not that logic is required on this board, but I thought that one was pretty straight forward.

[IllinoisState]

Not to be argumentative, but I believe his logic was that there was more demand for Shocker tickets than for Creighton tickets and that is why they cost more. One thing that caused the higher demand was the better atmosphere, so you could state, from a logic standpoint, that "better experience sometimes causes higher prices." Not, "higher prices always cause a better experience."

Not that logic is required on this board, but I thought that one was pretty straight forward.

The argument was okay up until that point, if it was as straightforward as you say then that shouldn't have been said.

[CBB_Fan]

The atmosphere that created Creighton's 17,000 fans a game is not something Wichita State could reproduce. They can do that because they are in a state with a fair number of basketball fans (expats from KC mostly) and no state flagship with good basketball. They have the ideal situation to create casual fans and they do a great job courting them. A school with their alumni base and student body would never be able to average even 10,000 fans by themselves.

However, that doesn't mean that Wichita State's fanbase is worse. Just different. While we'll see a fair number of bandwagon fans after this Final Four, we've been consistently popular for decades because of our sporadic great teams. Two facts to illustrate this:

Wichita State has had over 100 home games with 10,000 or more fans, in a 10,506 seat stadium. That means hundreds of games at near sell-out rates, despite ever increasing ticket prices (and required donations). Few schools in the country, mid-major or not, can claim to have 95% capacity against the Howard's of the world.

Secondly, Wichita State has averaged about 8,500 fans over the last 55 seasons. That isn't good attendance for a few years, but good attendance for decades. In fact, we have averaged about 9,000 fans since 1964, with only 10 seasons under 8,000 fans.

This extends over to most of our sports. Our volleyball team was 7th in the nation in attendance, the 7th straight year in the top 10. Our women's basketball team had games with up to 10,000 fans (not nearly that high an average of course). This isn't supposed to illustrate why Wichita State is valuable to outside conferences, but to give an idea of the culture of our programs.

Creighton has built itself by creating a good environment for a casual fan that never attended the university. They did this because it was the best course for them. Likewise, Wichita State has built our programs by building a great game-time atmosphere for a slightly smaller, more connected group of people. We do this because we have major in-state basketball competition that draws most of the casual fans, so we need to create an atmosphere that will draw local fans and keep alumni and students interested in the program.

Neither program is necessarily "better" than the other when it comes to their fanbase. They both have made the best of their situations, and would probably have less success trying to emulate the other school's style. That is why Wichita State doesn't play at a large off-campus arena and Creighton doesn't try to charge a ton for tickets at an on-campus site.

The amount of revenue from these attendance ideologies is roughly the same, with Wichita State slightly ahead. The ticket prices aren't really too relevant, because you will not be able to get a good seat at either stadium for ticket price. The real cost comes from donations and scalping (as games get sold out pretty quickly at Wichita State). I know the minimum donation amount to get all the benefits is $8,445 for next season, not counting the cost of the tickets themselves. And even then, the school has a priority system that makes it harder for new donors to get good seats.