Dan Muller

[Redbird Recon]

The question for me is, what would IlSU with this roster have done with Jank as the HC?

I think they would have been a third place team, and no worse than fourth.

Probably. And the schedule would have been garbage. At best, another early exit from the NIT...

[Bmarq04]

You're right. I think a lot of ISU fans (myself included) just thought too highly of the players coming back (even after we knew Moore was gone). I know I expected more from this player or that player to accompany Jackie and Tyler. However, as I said before, I think that's where I was just flat out wrong. I expected more out of Ekey, Wilkens, Allen, etc. But looking back, each player had a couple (just a couple) games per year where they were an impact player. I think I just looked at it with flawed biased glasses thinking they would turn it up a notch when there was next to nothing in their past for me to have made that decision logically.

Did ISU underachieve last year, ABSOLUTELY. No debating that. Were they as good going into the season as the media, fans, opponents thought? Thats where I think many people overestimated this team.

The question for me is, what would IlSU with this roster have done with Jank as the HC?

I think they would have been a third place team, and no worse than fourth. But how much of that is based on Muller as a coach, or not being as familiar with the players, or not having the players for his style, or not having the players buy into his system ... I don't know.

Tough question. I see your thought process and a 3-4th place finish could have happened.

BUT...I also don't believe Nic Moore would have been here. He wanted to go high major from the beginning but all of them were afraid he couldn't cut it size wise. I've been told that his mind was made up to leave long before Jank did. He had too many "friends" pushing him away. So, if that happened, Anthony Cousin likely would have been our PG. or Bryant Allen. Neither of them are anywhere near a starting pg in this league. Johnny Hill was underutilized and Jank didn't see him as a pg so I think Cousin, Allen, or a last minute recruit were the only options. Because of this and the need for a solid pg to compete in the valley, I could just as easily see an 8th place finish with Jank at the helm.

[Redbird23]

You're right. I think a lot of ISU fans (myself included) just thought too highly of the players coming back (even after we knew Moore was gone). I know I expected more from this player or that player to accompany Jackie and Tyler. However, as I said before, I think that's where I was just flat out wrong. I expected more out of Ekey, Wilkens, Allen, etc. But looking back, each player had a couple (just a couple) games per year where they were an impact player. I think I just looked at it with flawed biased glasses thinking they would turn it up a notch when there was next to nothing in their past for me to have made that decision logically.

Did ISU underachieve last year, ABSOLUTELY. No debating that. Were they as good going into the season as the media, fans, opponents thought? Thats where I think many people overestimated this team.

The question for me is, what would IlSU with this roster have done with Jank as the HC?

I think they would have been a third place team, and no worse than fourth. But how much of that is based on Muller as a coach, or not being as familiar with the players, or not having the players for his style, or not having the players buy into his system ... I don't know.

Thank you I've thought many times why didn't Jank just stay one more year and then he could of went to a much bigger school, and made more $ right away. I love Muller great guy to be coach but with an experienced team and Muller being a first year coach, I think it would of been smarter to have Judson as coach for one year and Muller as the CIW.

[jwa123]

Jank left because he makes $700,000 a year as an assistant coach. Highest paid assistant in the country. In addition, he has a signed contract with SMU that guarantees he will be the head coach when Brown leaves and as we know Brown never stays any place very long. When Jank becomes the head coach, I am sure he will make even more money than 700K. He had no reason to stick around another year when looking at it from a financial standpoint.

[Redbird23]

Another reason they had trouble was nobody could score beside JC and TB. What hurt the most was NMoore leaving ISU. The next closest was JHill who is now gone and he was a scoring guard. Not a point guard which I think hurt the Birds. Moore was a great point guard, but scored a lot also.

[rlh04d]

Tough question. I see your thought process and a 3-4th place finish could have happened.

BUT...I also don't believe Nic Moore would have been here. He wanted to go high major from the beginning but all of them were afraid he couldn't cut it size wise. I've been told that his mind was made up to leave long before Jank did. He had too many "friends" pushing him away. So, if that happened, Anthony Cousin likely would have been our PG. or Bryant Allen. Neither of them are anywhere near a starting pg in this league. Johnny Hill was underutilized and Jank didn't see him as a pg so I think Cousin, Allen, or a last minute recruit were the only options. Because of this and the need for a solid pg to compete in the valley, I could just as easily see an 8th place finish with Jank at the helm.

I think it's insanity to argue that having a weak point guard with Jank would have pushed a team with Carmichael and Brown down past Bradley and Drake.

You're not being logical.

I think it's ridiculous that I'm defending the talent on Illinois State while IlSU fans are basically saying Nic Moore was carrying the entire team

[Bmarq04]

Tough question. I see your thought process and a 3-4th place finish could have happened.

BUT...I also don't believe Nic Moore would have been here. He wanted to go high major from the beginning but all of them were afraid he couldn't cut it size wise. I've been told that his mind was made up to leave long before Jank did. He had too many "friends" pushing him away. So, if that happened, Anthony Cousin likely would have been our PG. or Bryant Allen. Neither of them are anywhere near a starting pg in this league. Johnny Hill was underutilized and Jank didn't see him as a pg so I think Cousin, Allen, or a last minute recruit were the only options. Because of this and the need for a solid pg to compete in the valley, I could just as easily see an 8th place finish with Jank at the helm.

I think it's insanity to argue that having a weak point guard with Jank would have pushed a team with Carmichael and Brown down past Bradley and Drake.

You're not being logical.

I think it's ridiculous that I'm defending the talent on Illinois State while IlSU fans are basically saying Nic Moore was carrying the entire team

I get what you're saying and maybe I am a little off!

Here is my logic...Year -- Conf Record -- Primary PG -- Supporting cast
11-12 Season -- 9-9 in conf -- Nic Moore -- Tyler Brown, Jackie, Wilkins, Ekey
10-11 Season -- 4-14 in conf -- Anthony Cousin -- Jackie, Wilkins, Ekey, Austin Hill
09-10 -- 11-7 -- Lloyd Phillips -- Osiris, Jackie, Odiakosa
08-09 -- 11-7 -- Lloyd -- Osiris, Champ, Odiakosa
07-08 -- 13-5 -- Boo Richardson -- Osiris, Anthony Slack, Dom Johnson, Odiakosa
06-07 -- 6-12 -- Boo -- Osiris, Slack, Dom, Kevin Dilligard

Assuming under Jank that Anthony Cousin was our best option at PG this year, and the last time he led us at PG we were 4-14. Lloyd, Boo, and Nic Moore were all easily better. My logic is that Jank's offense relied a little more on steady PG play. I think his offense was a little more discaplined and required a steady, above avg pg in the valley to be successful. I don't mean to say Nic Moore was carrying the team. But I do believe that aside from Jackie and Tyler, another "star" was needed, as I think the rest of the supporting cast wasn't good enough to accompany Jackie and Tyler to the success they were predicted to have.

I completely acknowledge that I could be wrong. This is just my opinion looking at history under his system. This is why I could have seen a difficult year just as easy as a 3rd-4th place finish.

Also, sorry if my table is jacked up. I tried to space it so it was somewhat easy to read.

[uniftw]

ISU had 2 potential NBA players on the roster - one of the 2 most dominate centers in the league and one of the most dangerous scorers in the league.

Outside of McD ISUR had every bit of talent as Creighton



I'm not going to say Muller can't coach because of this year, but it's not a good sign for him that he had the talent he had (regardless of how ISU fans want to downplay it) and couldn't figure a way to properly use them. Were they "his style" players? Maybe not...a good coach will find a way to use talented players of all kinds.



Remember preseason when ISU fans were talking about how the loss of Moore would not hurt them at all, and they'd still easily finish second because they had so much talent?

Yeah...

[Wufan]

The disappointing Redbirds of 2012-13 should be thought of in this light:

They had talent. They were awful when Jackie was a sophomore (4-14). They added Moore and Brown and went to 9-9 in conference and finished tied for third with 4 other teams. Beating WSU in the semi's in St Louis gave everyone hope that they were on their way up. They drop Moore and add a new coach and finish in 6th at 8-10. The bottom line is that Brown and Carmichael were scorers and nothing more. This team is and was about a 9-9 team. Everyone is seeing what they were in hind site.

Going forward, the key is not to over-estimate all the guys coming in as immediate contributors. Keane and Zieloft weren't good enough to be difference makers last year (on a team with little depth). JUCO guys (all rated lower than WSU's three new JUCOs and three returning JUCOs) will not make them a mid-pack team. Freshman ranked similarly to 7 other Valley recruiting classes will not make them a contender. Ill. St is in straight up rebuilding mode and this year is going to be a struggle. If the Birds finish as well this year as they did last, it will be a successful season.

[glm38]

I agree that a Brown was "just a scorer". But Carmichael? He was 1st in the conference in blocks AND 1st in rebounds per game (as well as 4th in ppg) .

That is dominance. You put even a mediocre supporting cast around a player like that and its tough to see how ISUr doesn't finish better 6th. I lay that totally at Muller's feet. But 1st year head coach's usually struggle. Muller deserves a few years to work through those mistakes and prove himself. I think he will.