Today's Games (11-17)

[Play Angry]

I don't know whether Muller will prove to be a good coach or not, although his background would suggest he stands a good chance to turn things around. But I do know it takes many coaches 3 yrs or more to get things going as PlayAngry seems to be conveniently avoiding looking at when Turgeon and then Marshall took over WSU.

Mark Turgeon's first 3 seasons at WSU:

2001-02: 9-19 (4-14)
2002-03: 15-15 (9-9)
2003-04: 18-12 (12-6)


Gregg Marshall's first 3 seasons at WSU:

2007-08: 11-20 (4-14)
2008-09: 17-17 (8-10)
2009-10: 25-10 (12-6)


Both coaches inherited teams that were anticipated to be play-in teams in the MVC Tournament and executed efficient turnarounds. Muller inherited a team projected to qualify for the NCAA Tournament, earned a 6 seed in St. Louis, and ran off half the roster. His sequel to that lackluster debut has involved a revolving door of non-qualifiers, more roster turnover, a projected bottom-tier finish and reinstating a starter without missing a game who punched a woman and resisted arrest. You could not have made a poorer comparison.

I do not hate ISUr. In fact, quite the contrary- they were my favorite non-WSU team in the MVC for many years. They had a lot of posters on the old site (Ghost of Rick Lamb, etc.) who were very smart and well-spoken. I would like to see the Redbirds become good again. At this point, however, it's pretty clear that Muller isn't the man for the job. ISUr fans on here will of course resist this mindset for another season or so, but his torpedo job of this program is plain as day to anyone who looks at the state of the program without trying to emotionally justify its deterioration.

As a fan of WSU throughout the 90s, I have some experience on seeing a once-proud program being dragged under by Charybdis. Although I'm sure it is not nearly enough to satisfy BirdmanBB.

[BEARZ77]

Unfortunately your stats only served to prove my point that it took until the 3rd year to turn programs around. Also I love the revisionist history about Marshalls 1st year. I know that is what we hear now, but facts were WSU fans had been telling us what a great recruiter Turgeon was up until he bolted, then all of sudden the roster was depleted. But actually there were 2 starters left from the sweet 16 team , a much lauded transfer, a top 20 prep school signee etc. etc. on that 1st team. Not a championship roster but not the bare bones depicted now. But yes they weren't Marshalls players and so it took him until his 3rd year to win.

Now I'm not saying Muller will win or not, doesn't really matter to me. I just think your hard-on for constantly bashing a coach in his second season at another school is curious at best.

[Black]

Wow Bearz, I'm impressed with your knowledge on WSU's program 6 years ago. I'm glad you were and still are following the program so intently. I know I appreciate the interest.

As for Muller, his tactics and in-game coaching is pretty abysmal. He was handed a preseason No.2 Valley team last year and ultimately missed Thursday night by millimeters. You're right. Time will tell, but color me as not impressed with the hire. That doesn't even count the fact that a lot of Redbird fans seemed to have trended downward at the exact same time.

[CaliRdBrd]

Wow Bearz, I'm impressed with your knowledge on WSU's program 6 years ago. I'm glad you were and still are following the program so intently. I know I appreciate the interest.

As for Muller, his tactics and in-game coaching is pretty abysmal. He was handed a preseason No.2 Valley team last year and ultimately missed Thursday night by millimeters. You're right. Time will tell, but color me as not impressed with the hire. That doesn't even count the fact that a lot of Redbird fans seemed to have trended downward at the exact same time.

I love how the Muller-bashing WSU fans seem to think that in Dan's first year he inherited a program that was the next Kentucky. How convenient that you continue to pay no attention regarding the departure of Nic Moore, which left us without our second best player and no starting PG.

I actually love Dan's hire and look forward toward him putting his stamp on this team.

[BirdmanBB]

As much as I hate to admit it, losing nic Moore really hurt us. Kaza keane did not prove to be an adequate replacement. Pg is like being a qb. Most important position on the floor. While we were projected #2 last year, it is clear we ultimately suffered because of this. Muller might have "run off" players, but this is his team and his players now. No more jankovich holdovers. I think the guy deserves a chance with the players he chose that would best fit his system before calling him a failure at isu. I hate it when people make dumb statements with nothing to back it up. You have been watching mvc ball since the 90's. So what? Use your brain and make a logical argument to back up bold statements. You might get a little more respect that way for your opinion.

[AndShock]

The departure of Nic Moore is really the only thing that can be used to defend last season. They were returning a 21-14 team that lost 0 people to graduation, had 2 borderline NBA players and a top contributor for Illinois. I love the Marshall and Turgeon comparisons since it only took them until their second year where you were able to obviously see an upward trend. I'm looking forward to see if Muller improves upon last season.

[CaliRdBrd]

As much as I hate to admit it, losing nic Moore really hurt us. Kaza keane did not prove to be an adequate replacement. Pg is like being a qb. Most important position on the floor. While we were projected #2 last year, it is clear we ultimately suffered because of this. Muller might have "run off" players, but this is his team and his players now. No more jankovich holdovers. I think the guy deserves a chance with the players he chose that would best fit his system before calling him a failure at isu. I hate it when people make dumb statements with nothing to back it up. You have been watching mvc ball since the 90's. So what? Use your brain and make a logical argument to back up bold statements. You might get a little more respect that way for your opinion.

Our preseason #2 ranking, while exciting, was incredibly optimistic. If it wasn't for a hot streak in the last 4 games of the seaon, including Nic Moore and TB bombing threes in the NIT, we would have had a less than admirable 2012 season.

Amazing how a 9-9 conference record get us such amazing credibility for the following season despite no PG and a new coach.

[Redbird Recon]

Both coaches inherited teams that were anticipated to be play-in teams in the MVC Tournament and executed efficient turnarounds.

Gregg inherited a team picked 6th in the 2007-08 preseason poll. WSU finished 9th that season.
http://cdn.streamlinetechnologies.com/m ... 0Polls.pdf

Fun times last night in Evanston. Welsh-Ryan is pretty lame.
The dumpster fire cools for the night!

[Wufan]

Both coaches inherited teams that were anticipated to be play-in teams in the MVC Tournament and executed efficient turnarounds.

Gregg inherited a team picked 6th in the 2007-08 preseason poll. WSU finished 9th that season.
http://cdn.streamlinetechnologies.com/m ... 0Polls.pdf

Fun times last night in Evanston. Welsh-Ryan is pretty lame.
The dumpster fire cools for the night!

But we lost our PG AFTER the Shox were picked to win. Everyone knew Nic Moore was gone and still picked them 2nd. Gregg Marshall's first season was disappointing.

[BEARZ77]

Please note, I wasn't bashing Marshall or Turgeon, just pointing out that most coaches don't usually start winning consistently until about 3 years in; not an absolute but a pretty good barometer. McDermott had UNI in the NCAA his 3rd year, Counzo won a league title his 3rd year in, you saw Marshalls and Turgeons records. I just think the situation Muller inherited at ISU was not as peachy as some WSU fans try to portray, just as they often tell us how bad it was for Marshall when from an outside vantage it didn't look that bad. Only those close to a program usually have a real sense of how good or bad things are and even they don't often have the full story.

I also think sometimes the first year can be better than the second if a coach inherits some talent left over from a good year but with poor recruiting years just preceding and then the transition year which is what happened with Lusk here. I think year three has to be showing a strong upward trend line , but until then I think you have to be patient and give a guy his shot. I seem to remember that John Wooden struggled at UCLA and that Dean Smith was hung and burned in effigy on the North Carolina campus early in their careers. In the end, it's the Red Bird fans who will determine whether Muller was worth the hire and a few down years.