Player of Year

[mvcfan]

The problem with your argument for POY is that the Shockers dominated this league once more. Now Evansville, UNI, and ISUR were very competitive for 2nd place and you need to be lauded for that outstanding feat. But you can't make it something that it isn't because that would make you (if this applies to you) delusional.

I get that argument, but I wasn't referencing Washpun player of year (just first team).

There is something to be said for being first (by a long shot) in the league. I don't necessarily believe RB isn't worthy of 1st team, I just believe Washpun is as well, if not more so for his value to that team.

Perhaps they take 6 this year.

I won't reference your 6. But when a team dominates by 3 games, and they only get one on the first team (we may not get anyone on the second team), and clearly Baker is one of our best players (best rebounder, best defender, a good 3 point shooter, gets to the basket, a top assist man, etc., he is deserving too. Only one on the first team doesn't make sense.

[BirdsEyeView]

Then take 6. Honestly, if we should pull some team who has TWO players it should be Evansvillle, DJ Balentine.

Sorry to get you worked up over suggesting Ron Baker's worth on first team. I know how defensive Shox fans can get with any suggestion of non-WSU heroism.

[mvcfan]

Then take 6. Honestly, if we should pull some team who has TWO players it should be Evansvillle, DJ Balentine.

Sorry to get you worked up over suggesting Ron Baker's worth on first team. I know how defensive Shox fans can get with any suggestion of non-WSU heroism.

You are getting defensive. I'm just presenting a sound argument. I think the idea that Evansville should receive two on the first team and the team who finished 3 games ahead one, doesn't make any sense at all. That would be a much better argument.
1. Ron and Fred should be on the first Team-no question in my mind (I think that the national media would agree)
2. Moskevicius probably has a no brainer place on the first team too.
3. The remainder of the team should come from Washpun, Bean, Ballentine, and maybe DAP (I would think that he is the best ISUR player.
4. Whoever, doesn't make the first team should lead the second team.

[BirdsEyeView]

Then take 6. Honestly, if we should pull some team who has TWO players it should be Evansvillle, DJ Balentine.

Sorry to get you worked up over suggesting Ron Baker's worth on first team. I know how defensive Shox fans can get with any suggestion of non-WSU heroism.

You are getting defensive. I'm just presenting a sound argument. I think the idea that Evansville should receive two on the first team and the team who finished 3 games ahead one, doesn't make any sense at all. That would be a much better argument.
1. Ron and Fred should be on the first Team-no question in my mind (I think that the national media would agree)
2. Moskevicius probably has a no brainer place on the first team too.
3. The remainder of the team should come from Washpun, Bean, Ballentine, and maybe DAP (I would think that he is the best ISUR player.
4. Whoever, doesn't make the first team should lead the second team.

I wasn't getting defensive. You did in defense of your boy. I was just stating an argument for discussion.

I agree with your points except I think Ron Baker is closer to those players in your 3rd point than he is to FVV and Mock IMO

[mvcfan]

Then take 6. Honestly, if we should pull some team who has TWO players it should be Evansvillle, DJ Balentine.

Sorry to get you worked up over suggesting Ron Baker's worth on first team. I know how defensive Shox fans can get with any suggestion of non-WSU heroism.

You are getting defensive. I'm just presenting a sound argument. I think the idea that Evansville should receive two on the first team and the team who finished 3 games ahead one, doesn't make any sense at all. That would be a much better argument.
1. Ron and Fred should be on the first Team-no question in my mind (I think that the national media would agree)
2. Moskevicius probably has a no brainer place on the first team too.
3. The remainder of the team should come from Washpun, Bean, Ballentine, and maybe DAP (I would think that he is the best ISUR player.
4. Whoever, doesn't make the first team should lead the second team.

I wasn't getting defensive. You did in defense of your boy. I was just stating an argument for discussion.

I agree with your points except I think Ron Baker is closer to those players in your 3rd point than he is to FVV and Mock IMO

No, you ignored my the main point that I was talking about. We dominated the league by 3 games with a 20+ point average win. It isn't even close so we should have our two best players on the first team. They are by far out two best players. The guys that you want to put out there are the best players on teams who were dominated and all they do is score.

[Redbirdgrad]

Getting back to the Player of the Year discussion, Ron Baker has to be thrown out in my opinion. Statistically speaking, Ron's Junior year was better than this year...

Junior Year - O Rating - 123.3, D Rating - 92.7, Win Shares - 6.5
Senior Year - O Rating - 118.6, D Rating - 87.3, Win Shares - 5.1

My eyes told me that he regressed a little this year, definitely didn't improve, and the numbers back that up. Still a heck of a player, but not an All American level, and probably more like 2nd team All Valley to be honest if we're just being fair and basing it on this year. But a down year for him is better than the majority of the Valley.

As far as Mock vs. FVV, I dug into that a little more and think if it was my vote, it would go to Mock. Mock just had an incredible statistical year:

FG% of 65.7%, 1st in MVC
416 Rebounds, 1st in MVC - next highest was 235
86 Blocks, 1st in MVC - next highest was 45
PER of 30.0, 1st in MVC, next highest was FVV with 23.1
Off Rating of 126.1, 1st in MVC
Def Rating of 83.2, 1st in MVC (Baker & FVV come in at 2, 3 here)
Win Shares of 6.4, 1st in MVC

The categories that FVV led the Valley in, there wasn't much of a gap (or dominance) to the next guy...

Assist/Game of 5.7, 1st in MVC - next highest was Washpun with 5.4
Steals per game FVV comes in 3rd

FVV is solid in every category, but doesn't just jump off the box score at you for the year like Mock does. Mock had such a dominant year in the Valley, I can't see voting the other way. But when you're up against an All American who just won his 3rd Valley title, I can understand if FVV gets the nod. Just wouldn't be the way I'd vote it after looking at the advanced numbers.

[BirdsEyeView]

No, you ignored my the main point that I was talking about. We dominated the league by 3 games with a 20+ point average win. It isn't even close so we should have our two best players on the first team. They are by far out two best players. The guys that you want to put out there are the best players on teams who were dominated and all they do is score.

Does this not count for agreeing with your main point?

There is something to be said for being first (by a long shot) in the league. I don't necessarily believe RB isn't worthy of 1st team, I just believe Washpun is as well, if not more so for his value to that team.

Perhaps they take 6 this year.

I said the above message 3 posts ago. My god, I feel like every WSU fan is the same.....no wonder their school is so easy to get into.

I think they should have 6. Washpun is deserving too. I even said, if we have to cut 2 players from one team it should be Evansville, not WSU.

Unbelievable. Go back to shockernet.

[Aargh]

Let me see if I've got this right.

The Shox don't have anyone playing center in the conversation for PoY. Mock is the obvious best post player in the league. Morris might get some votes for most improved. Grady might get some votes for NoY.

Wessel at PF will never be in any discussions for league honors. Brown at SF isn't in any conversations for any conference honors.

That leaves just Baker and VanVleet for recognition on a team that is absolutely dominating the league. I consider winning the league by a 2 or 3 game margin to be dominating.

How can anyone possibly make an argument that either one of those guys is not either the "Most Valuable" or the "Most Outstanding" player in the league? If you want "Most Valuable" - VanVleet gets it. If you want "Most Outstanding", Baker gets it.

If anybody has a player better than those two, that team should have finished a little closer to the top of the conference. The fact that no team could get within 2 or 3 games of the Shox is pretty much proof that the Shox have the better players in the league.

[Redbirdgrad]

Let me see if I've got this right.


The fact that no team could get within 2 or 3 games of the Shox is pretty much proof that the Shox have the better players in the league.

This is the only part you got right.

The Shockers have the best team, but this award isn't going to the best team. Take records and throw it out the window. This is for the best player in the league. The Shockers have the best supporting cast for 2 outstanding players, and in my opinion one of them is runner up for this award. Evansville's supporting cast... not so much. Mock did more with less, and the numbers back that up.

If you want to base the award around your feelings and your opinions, then you're right, give it to whoever you feel is the best. If you want to actually give it to the best player in the league for this year, then you need to double check the numbers one more time.

I guess I don't get the double argument that Wichita fans are using right now. Either the rest of your team minus FVV and Baker is so bad that they're the only thing keeping this ship afloat and the next few year are going to be really down for you OR the supporting cast is made up of highly recruited players who contribute more than the average Valley player gets from his supporting case of less highly recruited players.

You can't have it both ways. Either your team is good or it's not. If it's good only because of FVV and Baker, as in your argument, then the next couple of years are going to suck for you guys. I happen to disagree with that viewpoint.

[valleyfan93]

WSU is only 50-3 over the last 3 years in the Valley. I don't think they should receive any recognition on any team. It should be given to the best scorers on the other teams. Who really cares if they are a combined 3-50 against the best team during that stretch, losing by an average double-digit margin during that stretch, and finishing anywhere from 4-6 games back on average during that stretch. It's not that impressive. Keep it fair and spread the love. Stop being babies WSU fans.