MVC Games Week 11

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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby tribecalledquest » January 20th, 2022, 12:55 pm

BCPanther wrote:
Majik45 wrote:
BCPanther wrote:Maybe Wardle could figure things out before February 1, one of these years....


So much truth in this statement as a Bradley fan. Hence why there was a 6+ page thread on the Bradley board asking if it was time to fire Wardle after the ISU debacle. It's frustrating as heck to see glimpses of what Bradley can be, and continue to lose all these close games.

Some year Bradley will get it together before Feb. But it's also nice to know that Bradley usually peaks as a team come late February/early March.


And doing so gets the league a 15 seed and a much, much lower chance of winning a game or games....


Playing for the MVC Tournament isn't a thing as much as people want to make it something.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Action10 » January 20th, 2022, 9:12 pm

bradley_townie wrote:Chalk is good when you're a 1 bid league. I don't see it being catastrophic for the league if a 5 or 6 seed wins Arch Madness this year. I'm no bracketologist, but Loyola has to be getting an at-large this year unless something goes terribly, right?

I would like to think they are safely in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Wichita State was 13th in KenPom in 2016 and went to Dayton as one of the last four in. Then Wichita State was 27th in KenPom in 2011 and was a 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT

They should be in safely, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby NuncEstBibendum » January 20th, 2022, 9:33 pm

Action10 wrote:
bradley_townie wrote:Chalk is good when you're a 1 bid league. I don't see it being catastrophic for the league if a 5 or 6 seed wins Arch Madness this year. I'm no bracketologist, but Loyola has to be getting an at-large this year unless something goes terribly, right?

I would like to think they are safely in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Wichita State was 13th in KenPom in 2016 and went to Dayton as one of the last four in. Then Wichita State was 27th in KenPom in 2011 and was a 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT

They should be in safely, but I'm not holding my breath.


We all know that intelligent metrics made by intelligent people like Pomeroy are not what matters. But the Ramblers have a brand name now which should help them if they falter somewhat down the stretch.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Blers42 » January 20th, 2022, 9:41 pm

Action10 wrote:
bradley_townie wrote:Chalk is good when you're a 1 bid league. I don't see it being catastrophic for the league if a 5 or 6 seed wins Arch Madness this year. I'm no bracketologist, but Loyola has to be getting an at-large this year unless something goes terribly, right?

I would like to think they are safely in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Wichita State was 13th in KenPom in 2016 and went to Dayton as one of the last four in. Then Wichita State was 27th in KenPom in 2011 and was a 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT

They should be in safely, but I'm not holding my breath.


There's still 13 conference games left... Dropping more than three games before Arch Madness would be considered things going terribly wrong if Loyola wants an at-large bid. It's way too early to assume they're getting an at-large.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Campbellproud » January 20th, 2022, 11:04 pm

Blers42 wrote:
Action10 wrote:
bradley_townie wrote:Chalk is good when you're a 1 bid league. I don't see it being catastrophic for the league if a 5 or 6 seed wins Arch Madness this year. I'm no bracketologist, but Loyola has to be getting an at-large this year unless something goes terribly, right?

I would like to think they are safely in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Wichita State was 13th in KenPom in 2016 and went to Dayton as one of the last four in. Then Wichita State was 27th in KenPom in 2011 and was a 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT... A 4 seed in the NIT

They should be in safely, but I'm not holding my breath.


There's still 13 conference games left... Dropping more than three games before Arch Madness would be considered things going terribly wrong if Loyola wants an at-large bid. It's way too early to assume they're getting an at-large.


My guess is that they will lose at least three. All five of their wins are against teams in the bottom half of the league. All five of those teams have losing conference records. What’s left for them: 13 games, 8 of which are against teams in the upper half of the conference. And four of those games are away games. Several of them are on short rest.

I am skeptical that they can run that gauntlet and get by with less than three losses in those 13 games. This weekend’s game against Mo State will be a good measuring stick for them. If they lose, it probably portends further losses to come because they will be playing similar competition here on out.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Blers42 » January 21st, 2022, 1:04 am

Agreed that Saturday will be a good measuring stick. Their five wins in conference were against lower half teams, but they also had the best non conference results in the MVC. I never assumed they’d wipe the floor with every MVC team, they’ll likely drop a few games.

They shutdown this MSU team last season but Missouri State appears to have grown a lot since then. If Lucas can keep Mosley in check again then I think they’ll pull it off. However, if MSU goes on a run early I think the Ramblers might be in trouble.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Bearvision » January 21st, 2022, 9:15 am

Rambler63 wrote:I guess nobody in the league cares about what Loyola does anymore, even teams they're playing against.

Everyone was happy when we left the Horizon-- including Valpo, who thought we were dragging that conference down before they joyfully left it to join us in the MVC. Despite how indifferent MVC fans feel about Loyola leaving, the Loyola fans will feel a real loss at leaving your conference. But all those things underscore why the A-10 is a better conference for us-- you hate us and always have (even before we were in the conference), you dislike our approach to college basketball, you don't like that we have a healthy relationship between athletics and academics, you've created a euphemism hatred bag for us (too Northern, too urban, too liberal, too Illinois-connected), and the majority of MVC team fandoms don't understand how we live or what we think (even though most try to re-create how we live when they go on vacation).



Just some well-intended feedback:

1. Whew, you really come off as insecure in this part. You are leaving. You're not a jilted lover who looks back at the person they're leaving and wanting them to see how great you're doing.

2. You really come off as pompous over the academics part. Who in their right mind doesn't appreciate the fact that a university is well-regarded in academics? No one is denigrating you for that. If you ever hear jeers it's simply because they've learned it gets your goat. Which is fun to push the bruise any time you can as a rival fan.

3. It's laughable to me that someone in Chicago, Illinois thinks that people try to re-create how they live when they go on vacation. Of all the silly things you read on a message board, this one is quite high on the silly list.

4. You are absolutely correct that other programs are jealous that Loyola hit a hot streak, elevated their program, and cashed out at the exact right time to get to a better conference fit.

In reality, most MVC fans are sad to see your program leave. We are sad to see that a program doing well would want to leave for a mostly lateral move in conference overall (though it is a better fit for your program). Very few fans I've come across have actual hatred for Loyola, which is rare for a program that has had your success. Maybe a little eye-rolling over Sister Jean, but that's the media's fault and not anything on Loyola's side.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby BCPanther » January 21st, 2022, 9:35 am

Blers42 wrote:Agreed that Saturday will be a good measuring stick. Their five wins in conference were against lower half teams, but they also had the best non conference results in the MVC. I never assumed they’d wipe the floor with every MVC team, they’ll likely drop a few games.

They shutdown this MSU team last season but Missouri State appears to have grown a lot since then. If Lucas can keep Mosley in check again then I think they’ll pull it off. However, if MSU goes on a run early I think the Ramblers might be in trouble.


Loyola is one of 4 teams in KenPom top 50 that have zero missed games among their Top 8 scorers (Loyola, Davidson, Gonzaga, Iowa State). Sister Jean doing work.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Bearvision » January 21st, 2022, 9:51 am

BCPanther wrote:If it weren't for bad luck, UNI would have no luck at all.

Seriously, like 5 years at this point.


Always find it fascinating how fans remember only the circumstances that didn't go your way, instead of the ones that do.

You had around a 41% win expectancy in my model against Missouri State and won on the road in fortunate circumstances. Variance goes both ways.

Excluding your non-D1 game, you have a 57.5% Expected Winning Percentage using basic Pythagorean formula (with an exponent of 8). Your actual winning percentage is 52.9%. So, while you are 9-8, you "should" be 10-7.

This bears out when looking at games within a few percentage points expectation as well.

I'll be generous and include Nicholls State in the equation, even though it really was not a close-variance game, where Nicholls led the vast majority of the game and led by 13 with 2:52 remaining in the game. Clearly not a game where winning would be considered within the error bar for a standard game.

I'll even include the Bradley game, which UNI never led in the second half, trailed by as many as 14 in the second half, and UNI's largest lead was four points mid-way through the first half.

UNI never led in the second half against Liberty, and trailed by double figures late in the game. UNI has done a really good job of taking late leads by their opponents and making the final score quite close. Again, the error bars in games you never lead in the second half are different than games where the game is back-and-forth and the opponent hits a late shot to win.

In games like the situation above, UNI is 3-1.

Win over ISUb: UNI never led in the entire second half, trailed by double figures multiple times, and won the game in OT! That is a fortunate variance outcome (I.E. "Luck")

Win over SIU: UNI led practically the entire game, but the game was a one-possession game for majority of last minute. UNI made every FT and won the game by one. I wouldn't call this one luck, but it was certainly a fortunate variance outcome.

Win over MSU: UNI trailed virtually the entirety of the game and had several calls go their way late. This was a fortunate variance game in every way (I.E. "Luck")

Loss @ Valpo: UNI led 65-63 at the 5:44 mark and never led again. Valpo led 72-65 with 1:31 remaining in the game. A fairly large expected win percentage there. My model had UNI as the expected winner based on game characteristics, so this is the one loss you "should" have won in these type of games.

UNI has had some injuries over the past few years, no doubt, but they've had some things go their way this year. UNI has not been unlucky. They've been almost exactly what they should be if you adjust their 3-1 record in high-variance games to the more expected 2-2, and then give them a win for expected wins in points differential, their record comes out to...9-8.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Adunk33 » January 21st, 2022, 9:54 am

You can bring up KenPom all you want but the only thing that matters is NET. It's a metric set to screw mid majors out of at-large bids and the end all, be all for at-large consideration.

Loyola is 19, so in that metric they're safe. But a few losses to say UNI/MOST/Drake and a likely slip up against a "bottom half" team probably moves them to 55+ which I think would put them on the bubble and likely on the outside looking in, assuming a close Sunday loss.

MVC NET as of 1/20/22
19- Loyola
70- Mo State
109- Drake
113- Bradley
114- UNI
143- SIU
184- INST
203- Valpo
205- ILST
312- Evansville
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