MVC Games Week 11

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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby BCPanther » January 21st, 2022, 10:07 am

Bearvision wrote:
BCPanther wrote:If it weren't for bad luck, UNI would have no luck at all.

Seriously, like 5 years at this point.


Always find it fascinating how fans remember only the circumstances that didn't go your way, instead of the ones that do.

You had around a 41% win expectancy in my model against Missouri State and won on the road in fortunate circumstances. Variance goes both ways.

Excluding your non-D1 game, you have a 57.5% Expected Winning Percentage using basic Pythagorean formula (with an exponent of 8). Your actual winning percentage is 52.9%. So, while you are 9-8, you "should" be 10-7.

This bears out when looking at games within a few percentage points expectation as well.

I'll be generous and include Nicholls State in the equation, even though it really was not a close-variance game, where Nicholls led the vast majority of the game and led by 13 with 2:52 remaining in the game. Clearly not a game where winning would be considered within the error bar for a standard game.

I'll even include the Bradley game, which UNI never led in the second half, trailed by as many as 14 in the second half, and UNI's largest lead was four points mid-way through the first half.

UNI never led in the second half against Liberty, and trailed by double figures late in the game. UNI has done a really good job of taking late leads by their opponents and making the final score quite close. Again, the error bars in games you never lead in the second half are different than games where the game is back-and-forth and the opponent hits a late shot to win.

In games like the situation above, UNI is 3-1.

Win over ISUb: UNI never led in the entire second half, trailed by double figures multiple times, and won the game in OT! That is a fortunate variance outcome (I.E. "Luck")

Win over SIU: UNI led practically the entire game, but the game was a one-possession game for majority of last minute. UNI made every FT and won the game by one. I wouldn't call this one luck, but it was certainly a fortunate variance outcome.

Win over MSU: UNI trailed virtually the entirety of the game and had several calls go their way late. This was a fortunate variance game in every way (I.E. "Luck")

Loss @ Valpo: UNI led 65-63 at the 5:44 mark and never led again. Valpo led 72-65 with 1:31 remaining in the game. A fairly large expected win percentage there. My model had UNI as the expected winner based on game characteristics, so this is the one loss you "should" have won in these type of games.

UNI has had some injuries over the past few years, no doubt, but they've had some things go their way this year. UNI has not been unlucky. They've been almost exactly what they should be if you adjust their 3-1 record in high-variance games to the more expected 2-2, and then give them a win for expected wins in points differential, their record comes out to...9-8.


I totally understand where you're coming from but nothing happens in a vacuum.

So the Nicholls game isn't different with Carter and Born available?

The Liberty and Wyoming games (2 point losses) aren't different with Berhow?

The Valpo game isn't different without Green?

The one I'll grant you, without a doubt, is Indiana State. We were able to speed up a depleted roster and make a run.

If luck can be quantified, and KenPom thinks it can, we're 324th in the country and that's after spending most of the season in the 350s. Injuries happen to everyone and it doesn't change the outcomes of games but it's still disheartening as a fan.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Bearvision » January 21st, 2022, 11:01 am

BCPanther wrote:
Bearvision wrote:
BCPanther wrote:If it weren't for bad luck, UNI would have no luck at all.

Seriously, like 5 years at this point.


Always find it fascinating how fans remember only the circumstances that didn't go your way, instead of the ones that do.

You had around a 41% win expectancy in my model against Missouri State and won on the road in fortunate circumstances. Variance goes both ways.

Excluding your non-D1 game, you have a 57.5% Expected Winning Percentage using basic Pythagorean formula (with an exponent of 8). Your actual winning percentage is 52.9%. So, while you are 9-8, you "should" be 10-7.

This bears out when looking at games within a few percentage points expectation as well.

I'll be generous and include Nicholls State in the equation, even though it really was not a close-variance game, where Nicholls led the vast majority of the game and led by 13 with 2:52 remaining in the game. Clearly not a game where winning would be considered within the error bar for a standard game.

I'll even include the Bradley game, which UNI never led in the second half, trailed by as many as 14 in the second half, and UNI's largest lead was four points mid-way through the first half.

UNI never led in the second half against Liberty, and trailed by double figures late in the game. UNI has done a really good job of taking late leads by their opponents and making the final score quite close. Again, the error bars in games you never lead in the second half are different than games where the game is back-and-forth and the opponent hits a late shot to win.

In games like the situation above, UNI is 3-1.

Win over ISUb: UNI never led in the entire second half, trailed by double figures multiple times, and won the game in OT! That is a fortunate variance outcome (I.E. "Luck")

Win over SIU: UNI led practically the entire game, but the game was a one-possession game for majority of last minute. UNI made every FT and won the game by one. I wouldn't call this one luck, but it was certainly a fortunate variance outcome.

Win over MSU: UNI trailed virtually the entirety of the game and had several calls go their way late. This was a fortunate variance game in every way (I.E. "Luck")

Loss @ Valpo: UNI led 65-63 at the 5:44 mark and never led again. Valpo led 72-65 with 1:31 remaining in the game. A fairly large expected win percentage there. My model had UNI as the expected winner based on game characteristics, so this is the one loss you "should" have won in these type of games.

UNI has had some injuries over the past few years, no doubt, but they've had some things go their way this year. UNI has not been unlucky. They've been almost exactly what they should be if you adjust their 3-1 record in high-variance games to the more expected 2-2, and then give them a win for expected wins in points differential, their record comes out to...9-8.


I totally understand where you're coming from but nothing happens in a vacuum.

So the Nicholls game isn't different with Carter and Born available?

The Liberty and Wyoming games (2 point losses) aren't different with Berhow?

The Valpo game isn't different without Green?

The one I'll grant you, without a doubt, is Indiana State. We were able to speed up a depleted roster and make a run.

If luck can be quantified, and KenPom thinks it can, we're 324th in the country and that's after spending most of the season in the 350s. Injuries happen to everyone and it doesn't change the outcomes of games but it's still disheartening as a fan.


KenPom uses his Luck metric to "regress" results to the overall Offensive Point Per Possession and Defensive Point Per Possession results on overall basis. Every team with a ~.500 record and decent metrics will fare very poorly in their luck metric. Any team with a good record, but marginal data will fare very poorly in their luck metric. Any team at the tails will get regressed markedly towards the middle and gain multiple games.

Pretty much every Valley team fares poorly in their luck metric because they all have decent play data and then marginal records. You'll see the opposite with P5 teams often because they play all home games and MVC teams will play many road/neutral games- especially against good competition.

UNI has had injuries. Everyone has injuries. You aren't unlucky in your games because of injuries.

One area UNI does show as unlucky is in their win shares, which total 11.3, yet you only have 9 wins, but removing the non-D1 games moves that down to 10 wins, which again falls exactly where my analysis shows. That UNI "should" have a record of 10-7 rather than 9-8 at best.

Appreciate the discourse, rather than venom in your reply, I enjoy diving into the nuts and bolts of the data and it's never meant as a "slam" on your team, or a "pickup" to my team. Many on our board will tell you I am pretty hard on my own team as well.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby BCPanther » January 21st, 2022, 11:19 am

Your stuff is all good stuff and I totally appreciate what your numbers say.

I think that playing another game without Green shook our fan base mentally again.

Unquestioned best player in school history and better than we'll ever have again most likely and we lose a postseason due to COVID, a year of him due to injury and now a loss that could certainly end up costing us a shot at a title because he pops an asymptomatic positive though he's vaccinated and boosted.

It's mental at this point.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Loyola_Fan » January 21st, 2022, 11:32 am

BCPanther wrote:
Blers42 wrote:Agreed that Saturday will be a good measuring stick. Their five wins in conference were against lower half teams, but they also had the best non conference results in the MVC. I never assumed they’d wipe the floor with every MVC team, they’ll likely drop a few games.

They shutdown this MSU team last season but Missouri State appears to have grown a lot since then. If Lucas can keep Mosley in check again then I think they’ll pull it off. However, if MSU goes on a run early I think the Ramblers might be in trouble.


Loyola is one of 4 teams in KenPom top 50 that have zero missed games among their Top 8 scorers (Loyola, Davidson, Gonzaga, Iowa State). Sister Jean doing work.


Loyola was truly blessed by Cam Krutwig's durability. Perhaps there's something to be said for playing beneath the rim. That being said, while other key players have missed a stretch of games here or there, starting in the 2017-18 year, there have not been major injuries. The exception in my mind being Cooper Kaifes' season ending hip labrum injury. We sorely needed his 3 point shooting the next year, and when he did come back he never looked the same. Keith Clemons has been playing through something this year, but he seems to be rounding the corner on it.

All that to be said, it has not escaped this fan's notice that Loyola's success has been in large part due to being able to put its best players on the floor night in and night out. Whether we are doing something better on the training side, or it is just good luck, I cannot say.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby jsaluki080 » January 21st, 2022, 11:47 am

Adunk33 wrote:You can bring up KenPom all you want but the only thing that matters is NET. It's a metric set to screw mid majors out of at-large bids and the end all, be all for at-large consideration.

Loyola is 19, so in that metric they're safe. But a few losses to say UNI/MOST/Drake and a likely slip up against a "bottom half" team probably moves them to 55+ which I think would put them on the bubble and likely on the outside looking in, assuming a close Sunday loss.

MVC NET as of 1/20/22
19- Loyola
70- Mo State
109- Drake
113- Bradley
114- UNI
143- SIU
184- INST
203- Valpo
205- ILST
312- Evansville


So even if Loyola were to win out only to lose to SIU on Sunday, you think Loyola may not get in? Well ... now I'm a little conflicted. :(
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Bearvision » January 21st, 2022, 12:23 pm

jsaluki080 wrote:
Adunk33 wrote:You can bring up KenPom all you want but the only thing that matters is NET. It's a metric set to screw mid majors out of at-large bids and the end all, be all for at-large consideration.

Loyola is 19, so in that metric they're safe. But a few losses to say UNI/MOST/Drake and a likely slip up against a "bottom half" team probably moves them to 55+ which I think would put them on the bubble and likely on the outside looking in, assuming a close Sunday loss.

MVC NET as of 1/20/22
19- Loyola
70- Mo State
109- Drake
113- Bradley
114- UNI
143- SIU
184- INST
203- Valpo
205- ILST
312- Evansville


So even if Loyola were to win out only to lose to SIU on Sunday, you think Loyola may not get in? Well ... now I'm a little conflicted. :(


In the above scenario, Loyola would be a 6-seed.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Salukimadness86 » January 21st, 2022, 12:45 pm

Bearvision wrote:
jsaluki080 wrote:
Adunk33 wrote:You can bring up KenPom all you want but the only thing that matters is NET. It's a metric set to screw mid majors out of at-large bids and the end all, be all for at-large consideration.

Loyola is 19, so in that metric they're safe. But a few losses to say UNI/MOST/Drake and a likely slip up against a "bottom half" team probably moves them to 55+ which I think would put them on the bubble and likely on the outside looking in, assuming a close Sunday loss.

MVC NET as of 1/20/22
19- Loyola
70- Mo State
109- Drake
113- Bradley
114- UNI
143- SIU
184- INST
203- Valpo
205- ILST
312- Evansville


So even if Loyola were to win out only to lose to SIU on Sunday, you think Loyola may not get in? Well ... now I'm a little conflicted. :(


In the above scenario, Loyola would be a 6-seed.


Loyola is currently ranked #22 in A P poll. Win 75% of MVC games left, get to tourney title game, win or lose and their in. 7-5 seed would be my guess because of multiple solid wins in the non conference. Would like to see two valley teams dancing this year.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby Action10 » January 21st, 2022, 6:34 pm

Salukimadness86 wrote:
Bearvision wrote:In the above scenario, Loyola would be a 6-seed.


Loyola is currently ranked #22 in A P poll. Win 75% of MVC games left, get to tourney title game, win or lose and their in. 7-5 seed would be my guess because of multiple solid wins in the non conference. Would like to see two valley teams dancing this year.

If this were 2000-ish through 2010-ish I would agree, but not in today's landscape. The best win is San Francisco because Arizona State, DePaul, and Vandy aren't really even bubble teams right now.
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby BEARZ77 » January 21st, 2022, 7:49 pm

Action10 wrote:
Salukimadness86 wrote:
Bearvision wrote:In the above scenario, Loyola would be a 6-seed.


Loyola is currently ranked #22 in A P poll. Win 75% of MVC games left, get to tourney title game, win or lose and their in. 7-5 seed would be my guess because of multiple solid wins in the non conference. Would like to see two valley teams dancing this year.

If this were 2000-ish through 2010-ish I would agree, but not in today's landscape. The best win is San Francisco because Arizona State, DePaul, and Vandy aren't really even bubble teams right now.


Exactly, you want a picture of how this works consider:
Loyola 13-2 , #19 NET
Marquette 13-6 # 33 NET

Seems obvious right, but now consider Marquette has 5 Q1 wins, Loyola 1 Q1 win .
Loyola has no way to get 5 Q1 wins by seasons end , Marquette will probably have a chance for another 5 or 6. If Loyola goes 15-3 in the Valley then loses a game in STL , they'll be something like 24-6, but with maybe 2 Q-1 wins. Marquette could split their last 11 games or so, end up say 20-12, with 7 Q1 wins. They both probably would be in the 30's NET, but it wouldn't be close for who got the at large
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Re: MVC Games Week 11

Postby RacerJoeD » January 21st, 2022, 8:10 pm

Predictive metrics like NET reward you for playing well. That means playing well in losses matters. And playing poorly costs you even in a win.
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