Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

[uniftw]

The last time the Summit League explored football, NDSU told the conference to pound sand. NDSU is not going to put its football program in some bare bones league, it would be a scheduling nightmare and would put NDSU's football program at risk. This is a program that through its booster group funds every single scholarship for every single student athlete at the school, plus full cost of attendance. The school is very careful with what it does with its football program.

99.9% of NDSU fans want nothing to do with the kind of Summit League football ideas that got tossed around, don't confuse us with SDSU fans that seem to have some kind of Mount Rushmore sized chip on their shoulder regarding the MVC. For the school to ever consider a change of football conference it would require having other FCS powers on board like the Montana's.

There is some reality to the situation, Summit League football isn't going to happen anytime soon. You need 8-10 football schools committed to make it work and to get NDSU's attention the UNC's and SUU's of the world isn't going to cut it.

If you could see the text exchange I have with NDSU and SDSU fans. I had one just the other night completely on this topic.

They were convinced an all sports SL would be better. Cast off UNI, ISUr, MSU, YSU, ISUb, SIU. Creat a whole new conference like the one I laid out. Seriously - those were the schools presented by them.

Want to know another part of the reasoning? Playing SUU in football would make the basketball rivalries even better than playing IUPUI and IPFW. For realsies. I was told that IUPUI, ORU and UNO and IPFW draw terribly compared to SDSU, USD and UND games and it's because of football. Maybe partially true, butthat's flawed logic from the start because those 4 have been together for a century. I did some quick math and it turns out the IPFW, IUPUIs, UNOs and ORUs draw (on average) the exact same or slightly better than the football rivals. SUU and UNC aren't going to draw bigger basketball crowds simply because you play them once a year in football.

There seems to be a push (maybe a minority, but vocal minority) to cut off the nose to spite the face when it comes to the MVFC/MVC/SL. I, and many others, in the MVFC/MVC side of it truly believe it all centers around the name. The fact the conference is called the MISSOURI VALLEY football conference. If the name was left as Gateway Football Conference back in 08 when the Dakota State schools were added it wouldn't be an issue.

There is a "need" to recreate the old North Central Conference from the D2 days of the 1970s and earlier
NDSU and SDSU from 1922-2004
USD and UND from 1922-2008
UNI from 1937-1978
UNO 1937-1946 and 1976-2008
Northern Colorado 1978-2003

Let's get Augustana (1941-2008), Minnesota State (1968-2008) back in it as well? Right? We can just call it the "D2 schools in D1 athletics" conference.

UNI left all of those schools over 40 years ago. UNI willingly going back to something they didn't want to be a part of 40 years ago would be like Louisivlle, Cinciy and Memphis - who all left the MVC in the mid-70s going - Hey, we used to play a couple people in this conference. We want to come back and recreate it because we are tired of doing our own thing.

The MVC schools won't be terribly hurt for terribly long if this complex over the Summit League schools feeling slighted comes to a head. As I said, it probably results in WIU moving or Horizon (which allows them to remain an MVFC member). There are more than enough MVFC schools left to maintain the conference. The Summit League needs a minimum of four schools to make it work, and you're not going to keep the same quality. You are going to add teams that are poorly funded and not wanted by their existing conference. Bare bones is absolutely the perfect way to describe it. And why? The MVFC has a good thing going. I don't get the constant angst and "need" to change it from many out west.

[Fargobison]

We used to play football with SUU, nobody cared about playing them in hoops anymore than they cared about playing IUPUI. I do know that the entire athletic department hated traveling to SUU, it was an expensive nightmare to go play an awful team in the middle of nowhere.

I do see what you are saying from a few fans but I don't get this need to play teams in football and every other sport, I would get if they were quality programs but in this case they aren't. Oakland used to be a big rival when they were in the Summit and it was one of the bigger games on the schedule. Same with ORU before they turned into a dumpster fire. Basketball fans want to see good basketball.

Some of our fans may make a lot of noise but our admin is very much content with what conferences we are in. As are most of the fans I talk to. If somebody posted a thread about starting Summit League football on our board, it would get shouted down quickly.

[jacksfan29]

Here's the reality for the Summit teams if it gets crazy - they are F-ed.

Let's play this out with the MVC taking Valpo, Milwaukee and Murray State.

1. Horizon will want/need 2 teams. What two teams are in their footprint that would be easy adds that don't really fit their current conference? Gee. I think that's IUPUI and Fort Wayne. The Summit is down from 9 to 7 teams - remember minimum for an at-large is 6

2. The OVC is going to be looking for a school to replace Murray State. It depends on if they want a football school. A prime candidate would be WIU. WIU is now the EXTREME eastern edge of the Summit. They offer football, which would keep the OVC at 9 FB members - 8 conference games in an 11 game schedule. They are a perfect travel partner for EIU.

Summit is now down to 6 members. Still have an AL but it's tenuous. You are now also scheduling 20 freaking OOC games for basketball. 20. That's not possible. Chances are you'd end up playing each conference team 3 times and rotating who gets 2 home games vs 1 road game every other year.

Then lets talk about starting Summit League football to make up for it. You need football schools because you don't have enough teams for a football AQ bid (remember, you need 6). Your conference would be UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNO, ORU and Denver. Those last three don't play football. You need AT LEAST 1 more football member. Realistically you need 4 to make scheduling happen correctly. Let's pretend Denver doesn't peace out to the WAC or WCC or Big West because the Summit falling apart.

The names, from NDSU/SDSU fans I talk to on the reg are Northern Colorado, Southern Utah Weber State for football. Let's pretend all 4 join. You are then at 10 members with 8 playing football. Do you really trust Denver? I guess they have their "travel partner" in Northern Colorado. Is that really that great of a conference? Is that worth blowing up the MVFC for? You're replacing UNI, ISUr, YSU, SIU, MSU, WIU, ISUb with 3 programs all worse than ISUb. You're conference footprint? Man, enjoy sending all your sports to Ogden and Cedar City Utah and then Greeley and Denver CO and then still down to Oklahoma. When looking at those travel bills, remember that UND left the Big Sky - a similar footprint - because they were going bankrupt from that travel costs. For those unfamiliar with those locations - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1b7lgM ... sp=sharing

Meanwhile the MVFC has UNI, SIU, MSU, ISUR, ISUB, YSU and MSU as it's base. It keeps it's AQ from the start and doesn't have to worry about the NCAA allowing yet another waiver to bypass the NCAAs continuity rule. It doesn't have to worry about the NCAA allowing another conference to start to support football. Hell, maybe the Horizon would take WIU and that would leave WIU in the MVFC for football. That gives us 8 members from the start.


See, here's the thing about all of the s*** talk you try to post on here and AGS and team specific sites, none of it is grounded in any kind of reality. It's all grounded in this strange complex completely detached from how things actually work. You want to know something funny - since NDSU/SDSU fans love to talk about broke MVC schools - SDSU funds it's football program at the lowest level in the MVFC at under 3 million. NDSU and UND are facing record budget cuts. The reality is, as unstable as you all want to think the MVC is, it's quite stable. We have programs/schools literally begging their BOR to let them make a move. Meanwhile, people can't get out of the Summit fast enough. The SL is legitimately 3 conference moves away from having to merge with the WAC to avoid complete shut down, especially if the angst against the MVFC continues to grow from the Dakota's like it is.

Yet SDSU still has a stronger FB program then UNI. I'm not interested in Summit FB. I'm interested in SDSU eventually separating from directional schools like UNI and partnering with like minded State schools (see Montana and Idaho). What I find funny are UNI fans, who have been left behind by the stronger MVC schools acting high and mighty. CU and now WSU have moved on to bigger and better things. UNI? Are left praising Murray State and dreaming of an MWC invite that has a zero percent chance of ever happening.

[uniftw]

Here's the reality for the Summit teams if it gets crazy - they are F-ed.

Let's play this out with the MVC taking Valpo, Milwaukee and Murray State.

1. Horizon will want/need 2 teams. What two teams are in their footprint that would be easy adds that don't really fit their current conference? Gee. I think that's IUPUI and Fort Wayne. The Summit is down from 9 to 7 teams - remember minimum for an at-large is 6

2. The OVC is going to be looking for a school to replace Murray State. It depends on if they want a football school. A prime candidate would be WIU. WIU is now the EXTREME eastern edge of the Summit. They offer football, which would keep the OVC at 9 FB members - 8 conference games in an 11 game schedule. They are a perfect travel partner for EIU.

Summit is now down to 6 members. Still have an AL but it's tenuous. You are now also scheduling 20 freaking OOC games for basketball. 20. That's not possible. Chances are you'd end up playing each conference team 3 times and rotating who gets 2 home games vs 1 road game every other year.

Then lets talk about starting Summit League football to make up for it. You need football schools because you don't have enough teams for a football AQ bid (remember, you need 6). Your conference would be UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNO, ORU and Denver. Those last three don't play football. You need AT LEAST 1 more football member. Realistically you need 4 to make scheduling happen correctly. Let's pretend Denver doesn't peace out to the WAC or WCC or Big West because the Summit falling apart.

The names, from NDSU/SDSU fans I talk to on the reg are Northern Colorado, Southern Utah Weber State for football. Let's pretend all 4 join. You are then at 10 members with 8 playing football. Do you really trust Denver? I guess they have their "travel partner" in Northern Colorado. Is that really that great of a conference? Is that worth blowing up the MVFC for? You're replacing UNI, ISUr, YSU, SIU, MSU, WIU, ISUb with 3 programs all worse than ISUb. You're conference footprint? Man, enjoy sending all your sports to Ogden and Cedar City Utah and then Greeley and Denver CO and then still down to Oklahoma. When looking at those travel bills, remember that UND left the Big Sky - a similar footprint - because they were going bankrupt from that travel costs. For those unfamiliar with those locations - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1b7lgM ... sp=sharing

Meanwhile the MVFC has UNI, SIU, MSU, ISUR, ISUB, YSU and MSU as it's base. It keeps it's AQ from the start and doesn't have to worry about the NCAA allowing yet another waiver to bypass the NCAAs continuity rule. It doesn't have to worry about the NCAA allowing another conference to start to support football. Hell, maybe the Horizon would take WIU and that would leave WIU in the MVFC for football. That gives us 8 members from the start.


See, here's the thing about all of the s*** talk you try to post on here and AGS and team specific sites, none of it is grounded in any kind of reality. It's all grounded in this strange complex completely detached from how things actually work. You want to know something funny - since NDSU/SDSU fans love to talk about broke MVC schools - SDSU funds it's football program at the lowest level in the MVFC at under 3 million. NDSU and UND are facing record budget cuts. The reality is, as unstable as you all want to think the MVC is, it's quite stable. We have programs/schools literally begging their BOR to let them make a move. Meanwhile, people can't get out of the Summit fast enough. The SL is legitimately 3 conference moves away from having to merge with the WAC to avoid complete shut down, especially if the angst against the MVFC continues to grow from the Dakota's like it is.

Yet SDSU still has a stronger FB program then UNI. I'm not interested in Summit FB. I'm interested in SDSU eventually separating from directional schools like UNI and partnering with like minded State schools (see Montana and Idaho). What I find funny are UNI fans, who have been left behind by the stronger MVC schools acting high and mighty. CU and now WSU have moved on to bigger and better things. UNI? Are left praising Murray State and dreaming of an MWC invite that has a zero percent chance of ever happening.

So why ever join the MVFC?

Why not have gone to the Big Sky - where you could have partnered up with Montana and Montana State - and then Northern Arizona, Northern Colorado, Southern Utah, Eastern Washington, and then places like Cal Davis, Cal Poly, Weber State, Portland State, Sacramento State.

Rofl. Those are great schools and athletic departments to tie too

Feel free to take your bitter ass to the Big Sky message boards and beg for an invite.

[outpost]

I have not logged in to this forum in quite some time. Have read quite a lot here though.

I just wanted to cut through the keyboard fighting to express my joy at moving on. Lots of memories, going back to my days in the basketball band during the early '80's. Memories weren't all happy ones from the WSU point of view, but memories nevertheless and there are far too many to post in a single message. I WON'T miss St. Louis so much, or your commissioner. I hope you get a change at the top sometime soon.

I might drop in on occasion to post, and I'll definitely follow the Valley in the aftermath of our departure.

I'll leave you with this quote (paraphrased) from JFK:

"Pray not for an easier life, but pray to become stronger men."

Best of luck to all who remain.

Sincerely,

outpost

[professorbum]

We used to play football with SUU, nobody cared about playing them in hoops anymore than they cared about playing IUPUI. I do know that the entire athletic department hated traveling to SUU, it was an expensive nightmare to go play an awful team in the middle of nowhere.

I do see what you are saying from a few fans but I don't get this need to play teams in football and every other sport, I would get if they were quality programs but in this case they aren't. Oakland used to be a big rival when they were in the Summit and it was one of the bigger games on the schedule. Same with ORU before they turned into a dumpster fire. Basketball fans want to see good basketball.

Some of our fans may make a lot of noise but our admin is very much content with what conferences we are in. As are most of the fans I talk to. If somebody posted a thread about starting Summit League football on our board, it would get shouted down quickly.

No, but there are plenty of posts on our board about how unthrilled NDSU will be to exist as a bastard step-child in the very MVFC we were instrumental in elevating. SDSU the same. If you think Murray State is going to join the MVC and MVFC(thereby further reducing the influence of Summit schools) and NDSU is just gonna take it after being told to sit down and shut up, I think you're mistaken. The fact is, the scenario uniftw described is likely to happen. And I hope NDSU, SDSU, etc., all have a plan to do something together if it does.

I've always thought that the MVFC could be in real peril if the MVC fails to add the Dakotas this time around. The Horizon will indeed poach in the east. WIU will indeed take a good look at the OVC. The Dakotas had better already be on the phone to the Montanas and Idahos of the world. Because I for one do not want NDSU to be shat on by the MVC and have nothing to say about it.

[TheAsianSensation]

This is why I think NDSU really does want in the MVC proper that badly. It's their best chance to protect football. The problem is their mission in athletics just doesn't match up with the all-sport MVC members. I kind of feel bad for them because of geography; they just simply lack programs around them with similar aspirations.

But if NDSU is going to throw their body in front of a Murray St add, when the livelihood of the MVC as a whole depends on our basketball product, there's going to be issues. I get the sense that UNI/SIU/InSU/IlSU/MoSt are willing to let the football product suffer in the name of basketball, which violenty runs counter to the NDSU mission.

[professorbum]

This is why I think NDSU really does want in the MVC proper that badly. It's their best chance to protect football. The problem is their mission in athletics just doesn't match up with the all-sport MVC members. I kind of feel bad for them because of geography; they just simply lack programs around them with similar aspirations.

But if NDSU is going to throw their body in front of a Murray St add, when the livelihood of the MVC as a whole depends on our basketball product, there's going to be issues. I get the sense that UNI/SIU/InSU/IlSU/MoSt are willing to let the football product suffer in the name of basketball, which violenty runs counter to the NDSU mission.

The funny thing is, basketball at NDSU is ascending. Fans are excited about the new arena. Fans turn out for decent opponents. Plus, a sizeable minority of football fans are growing impatient being parked in FCS, while there's only one Division I in basketball. I think an MVC invite would have dramatically raised the basketball psyche at NDSU. We all have accepted that the invite is not coming. I think it is a shame for us and for the MVC. And for the MVFC for that matter.

By the way, I agree with Lakes on many things. But I disagree on his willingness to toss the other Dakotas aside. I hope whereever our future lies, we've got at least SDSU there as well, if not all the Dakotas.

[Fargobison]

We used to play football with SUU, nobody cared about playing them in hoops anymore than they cared about playing IUPUI. I do know that the entire athletic department hated traveling to SUU, it was an expensive nightmare to go play an awful team in the middle of nowhere.

I do see what you are saying from a few fans but I don't get this need to play teams in football and every other sport, I would get if they were quality programs but in this case they aren't. Oakland used to be a big rival when they were in the Summit and it was one of the bigger games on the schedule. Same with ORU before they turned into a dumpster fire. Basketball fans want to see good basketball.

Some of our fans may make a lot of noise but our admin is very much content with what conferences we are in. As are most of the fans I talk to. If somebody posted a thread about starting Summit League football on our board, it would get shouted down quickly.

No, but there are plenty of posts on our board about how unthrilled NDSU will be to exist as a bastard step-child in the very MVFC we were instrumental in elevating. SDSU the same. If you think Murray State is going to join the MVC and MVFC(thereby further reducing the influence of Summit schools) and NDSU is just gonna take it after being told to sit down and shut up, I think you're mistaken. The fact is, the scenario uniftw described is likely to happen. And I hope NDSU, SDSU, etc., all have a plan to do something together if it does.

I've always thought that the MVFC could be in real peril if the MVC fails to add the Dakotas this time around. The Horizon will indeed poach in the east. WIU will indeed take a good look at the OVC. The Dakotas had better already be on the phone to the Montanas and Idahos of the world. Because I for one do not want NDSU to be shat on again by the MVC and have nothing to say about it.

NDSU is not going to leave the MVFC to play football against SDSU, USD, UND, UNC and SUU(or whatever other garbage team out west was mentioned). I do agree if the Montana's wanted to do something the discussion would change but Montana seems to be ultra conservative when it comes to realignment. They are probably the one Big Sky school left that has had opportunities to move on and haven't.

Our admin and football coaching staff likes the MVFC, if the school was to leave it would be only to something that is rock solid.

We are just as much to blame for Murray State football as the MVC is, we leveraged the MVC football schools to add western schools that they didn't really want because our Olympic sports league needed it to be done. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

[uniftw]

Bingo

The DSUs response to being told you need to up your basketball game was to build a 5,000 completely retractable multipurpose facility with a basketball court in it, not up your basketball budget, and not show a commitment to keeping winning coaches.

Think about it this way:
The Dakota schools spending between 1.2 and 1.45 million in basketball. The MVC average is like 2.6-2.7m.

Drake and Valpo spend 1.2 million on football. The MVFC average is 3.4m

Would the Dakota schools be willing to add Drake and Valpo to the MVFC? F no they wouldn't. They don't show a commitment to winning beyond what is required to do so in their current league. Remember, Drake has taken UND to the final possession just a year ago. Drake is averaging a conference title every 3 or 4 years since the turn of the century in the PFL. That's about the same as NDSU and basketball titles in The Summit.