Serious Question

[Stickboy46]

There is so much ignorance and blind thinking to this statement I don't even know how to respond.

Community support is great and all, however, and this might sound crazy...if you have a shitty hire, you won't be any good. Crazy to think like that, I know. I did just use a few examples to the contrary of this statement above...Bill Self being a prime example of an elite coach leaving, but hey I'll give you a pro reference.

The Chicago Bears...huge fan support, lots of NFL money to spend...then hired Marc Trestman after Lovie Smith.

The Bears have been in the crapper ever since. But, with your logic, that community support means you are full proof to always be good. THUMBS UP buddy!

Kochs, etc. were able to increase his salary to a respectable difference from the crazy $4 million offer from Alabama. Without them and whoever other big donors were, you might not have him anymore. Which means you probably aren't as good now and you might not be accepted into the AAC. But, sure, go ahead and assume you fans are the main reason why the program is so great. Not the coach, or the AD, or even the President, or even those darn rich alums helping out. It's that community support that makes you so good

Finally, you stated above that SASO and ticket sales equivalent to $5 millions allows you to have the flexibility to keep people and spend more with in the program....YET YET YET, you had to have a team lead by the Kochs to raise funds, even with that money. So that statement meant what then???

We absolutely might not have been as good, we might not have gotten into the AAC. OR we might have .. Turgeon took us to a Sweet 16 and bolted. Guess we should have falled off the map then. Would we have gotten Turgeon if we didn't have support at that time? Why did Marshall even want to come here? He had gotten some decent offer. It was because of the support, and potential of WSU in what was, at the time, a better conference).

I believe the lowest yearly average attendance for WSU in the last 20+ years (including those years when we were really really horrible) is still higher than 2nd highest average attendance of any school in the MVC this year.

You keep bringing up the Alabama offer. That was a crazy, insane offer. Keep in mind that all this support was enough to get Marshall to turn down an increase of over a million. The offer was rumored between 4.4-4.8 million and he stayed for an average of 3.3 million. So it's not all about money, the support helped. But yes, the high donors are why we can pay a top 8 or 9 salary in the country. They are not the reason that were were in the 10% of D1 coaches salary before the Alabama offer.

I'll continue to go off of facts. The fact that the program was built BEFORE the Alabama counter offer. WSU's athletic budget is ~25 million (8 million or so for MBB). Even if big donor meeting kicked in 1 million to bump that up that salary, that's only 4% of the total budget or 12% of the MBB budget. That means 88/96% comes from the other support. A 7 million dollar budget for MBB is still 2-4x what the other teams in the MVC are fielding.

There is no saving you.

Turgeon = great hire (had NOTHING TO DO WITH FAN SUPPORT, but your AD's ability to find good coaching)

What does fan support have to do with someone finding a great up and coming coach.

Marshall came from the low major school, Winthrop. That level is where many MVC coaches come from (either that or an assistant at a P5 school)
Turgeon came from Jacksonville State...again low major school

Wichita is an upgrade over both of those schools. Explain the corollary of fan support to why they came to your program.

WHAT DOES YOUR BUDGET HAVE TO DO WITH HIRING A GREAT COACH FROM THE LOW MAJORS?????

These are upgraded jobs from Jacksonville State and Winthrop. That's so simple. You keep going back to the same stuff despite me providing examples.

University of Illinois sold out their stadium and have lots of money in their athletic basketball budget. Bill Self leaves and they have not had a good coach since (Weber was only good with Self's players).

Do you not comprehend things or are you simply choosing what to read and making your own conclusions?

This is the most delusional thinking I have ever read and I now am getting dumber by reading your crap.

I don't think it's possible for you to get any dumber.

[BirdsEyeView]

Ok, I give up. You can continue to wonder why your programs can't keep up when you have horrible fan support. Got it.

Let's just wait until we make a great hire to support again, at that point it's too late.

Answer my question.

How does fan support correlate to a great hire that already came from a low major program where Wichita is an upgrade?

ISUr can dive deep into the ranks of the SWAC right now and find the next Gregg Marshall today. He will come here even when he sees we sell half our stadium out each game. You know why? It's an upgraded job.

[Stickboy46]

Ok, I give up. You can continue to wonder why your programs can't keep up when you have horrible fan support. Got it.

Let's just wait until we make a great hire to support again, at that point it's too late.

Answer my question.

How does fan support correlate to a great hire that already came from a low major program where Wichita is an upgrade?

ISUr can dive deep into the ranks of the SWAC right now and find the next Gregg Marshall today. He will come here even when he sees we sell half our stadium out each game. You know why? It's an upgraded job.

Ok, you have zero fan support. You only fill your arena to 20-40% capacity. Due to this your budget is limited to say 250k-500k for a salary because you don't know how much $$$ support you will get from you fanbase.

How enticing does that look for an up and coming coach? How well does a coach think he can recruit when he can only show 1/4-1/2 full arena? It probably eliminates some candidates that might wait out for a better offer. Marshall sure wouldn't have come to Wichita if that's how it was there.

Let's fast forward a few years. You start to have some success. Nothing crazy, but better than you were. Still using your assumption that fan support doesn't matter. Some low level P5 with better support throws out a million offer to your coach. What's keeping him there? Nothing. He's gone and you are back at square one.

Yet again, if its all about "upgraded jobs" why is Marshall still at Wichita. He had a P5 offer for 1-1.5 million more than WSU offered. Why isn't he at Alabama? That is an "upgraded job" by your standards. Because fan and community support MATTERS

[BirdsEyeView]

I don't think it's possible for you to get any dumber.

Good one.

[Jsnhbe1Birds]

I agree fans need to show up to Redbird arena. The community support sucks. The fact is Bloomington-Normal isnt much of a sports town. In fact, the only thing BloNo seams to like are crappy country concerts. Still ISUr is regularly between 50-60% capacity according to the numbers, not 20-40%. They need to lower prices and even give away tickets for now to get up to 80-90% capacity. Get fans interested in a good product and they will come back. This, of course, requires a good product. As of now they have that. Do whatever it takes. Fake it until you make it. The status quo is ridiculous and I can't believe they'd rather stay at half full then 90% full. But, they seem to. Players want to play in capacity stadiums not a half empty arena where you can hear their on court conversation from the upper bowl. Better recruits equal a better product, which equals more wins, which equal more money. Put butts in the seats by any legal means necessary.

[BirdsEyeView]

Ok, I give up. You can continue to wonder why your programs can't keep up when you have horrible fan support. Got it.

Let's just wait until we make a great hire to support again, at that point it's too late.

Answer my question.

How does fan support correlate to a great hire that already came from a low major program where Wichita is an upgrade?

ISUr can dive deep into the ranks of the SWAC right now and find the next Gregg Marshall today. He will come here even when he sees we sell half our stadium out each game. You know why? It's an upgraded job.

Ok, you have zero fan support. You only fill your arena to 20-40% capacity. Due to this your budget is limited to say 250k-500k for a salary because you don't know how much $$$ support you will get from you fanbase.

How enticing does that look for an up and coming coach? How well does a coach think he can recruit when he can only show 1/4-1/2 full arena? It probably eliminates some candidates that might wait out for a better offer. Marshall sure wouldn't have come to Wichita if that's how it was there.

Let's fast forward a few years. You start to have some success. Nothing crazy, but better than you were. Still using your assumption that fan support doesn't matter. Some low level P5 with better support throws out a million offer to your coach. What's keeping him there? Nothing. He's gone and you are back at square one.

Yet again, if its all about "upgraded jobs" why is Marshall still at Wichita He had a P5 offer for 1-1.5 million more than WSU offered. Why isn't he at Alabama? That is an "upgraded job" by your standards. Because fan and community support MATTERS

Often the $250K-$500K salary is an increase from a low major to a mid-major. You were hinting that fan support is what will get you the next great coach at WSU, but that requires a good AD with a keen eye on hiring a good, up and coming coach. I am only arguing initial hire since that's what you were referencing, that's it. Your reference to fan support is not overly relevant for hiring on a coach. Nor is it relevant if an ungodly number is thrown out by a school trying to poach and your school can't match it.

Your fan support wasn't even enough to keep Gregg Marshall given the stories that Charles Koch had to lead a group of donors to help raise funds to keep him there after the offer came in.

ISUr, just like every other MVC team, can hire in the next Gregg Marshall initially. Who is to say Drake's new Coach Medved isn't the next Gregg Marshall? The problem and the lucky part for Wichita is that you have the money to keep said coach when the P5 comes calling.

We do not.

ISUr could keep a coach until someone comes calling. At that point, unless we have donors willing to increase his salary substantially to nearly match I am guessing he is gone. Fan support or not.

Your entire beliefs are prefaced on a false premise that fan support matters when hiring the next coach and that fan support will manage to keep WSU relevant. It's great to have that support, but it won't mean you will get to maintain or continue to grow the level you were at.

The University of Illinois lost their coach, have the support, have the donors, have everything you would need to be successful, yet have not been. Why? They hired Bruce Weber who could not leverage the Final Four he reached with Bill Self's players. Then hired John Groce who could not recruit well enough to compete in the Big 10 and even make the NCAA Tournament.
Illinois has what WSU has. Fan Support, money, donors, etc. and yet they were not able to match the success of Bill Self (coming from Tulsa) to maintain the status.
Initially, Illinois was able to hire Bill Self (again an upgrade from mid-major to high major...similar to Turgeon/Marshall low major to mid-major) but once they lost him, their fan support/program support was not enough to keep thier level of play the same and they have dropped off...fan support withstanding.

[BirdsEyeView]

I agree fans need to show up to Redbird arena. The community support sucks. The fact is Bloomington-Normal isnt much of a sports town. In fact, the only thing BloNo seams to like are crappy country concerts. Still ISUr is regularly between 50-60% capacity according to the numbers, not 20-40%. They need to lower prices and even give away tickets for now to get up to 80-90% capacity. Get fans interested in a good product and they will come back. This, of course, requires a good product. As of now they have that. Do whatever it takes. Fake it until you make it. The status quo is ridiculous and I can't believe they'd rather stay at half full then 90% full. But, they seem to. Players want to play in capacity stadiums not a half empty arena where you can hear their on court conversation from the upper bowl. Better recruits equal a better product, which equals more wins, which equal more money. Put butts in the seats by any legal means necessary.

But does doing that mean Dan Muller will stick around if a school like Wake Forest comes calling and offers $2 million a year instead of his $500K+ right now?

If we sell out Redbird Arena next year for every game and we are good, then offseason comes and that offer comes in from Wake Forest. Is Dan Muller still here because of the fan support (assuming we don't have the donors to get close to $2 million a year)?

No way.

[Stickboy46]

Often the $250K-$500K salary is an increase from a low major to a mid-major. You were hinting that fan support is what will get you the next great coach at WSU, but that requires a good AD with a keen eye on hiring a good, up and coming coach. I am only arguing initial hire since that's what you were referencing, that's it. Your reference to fan support is not overly relevant for hiring on a coach. Nor is it relevant if an ungodly number is thrown out by a school trying to poach and your school can't match it.

Just have to agree to disagree. Fan Support is often mentioned as a reason to take a job. WSU still had a higher level of fan support at the point that Turgeon was hired than any other school in the MVC this year.

Your fan support wasn't even enough to keep Gregg Marshall given the stories that Charles Koch had to lead a group of donors to help raise funds to keep him there after the offer came in.

WSU did not match Alabama's offer by a long shot, yet Marshall did not leave. So this is factually incorrect.

ISUr, just like every other MVC team, can hire in the next Gregg Marshall initially. Who is to say Drake's new Coach Medved isn't the next Gregg Marshall? The problem and the lucky part for Wichita is that you have the money to keep said coach when the P5 comes calling.

We do not.

ISUr could keep a coach until someone comes calling. At that point, unless we have donors willing to increase his salary substantially to nearly match I am guessing he is gone. Fan support or not.

Your entire beliefs are prefaced on a false premise that fan support matters when hiring the next coach and that fan support will manage to keep WSU relevant. It's great to have that support, but it won't mean you will get to maintain or continue to grow the level you were at.

Fan support = $$$$ ... Money = maintaining and keeping good coaches. You can't keep your coach with a decent offer (not talking 4 million here, but more like 1-1.5 million) because you don't have fan support at a high level and don't have high level donors. One or the other and you would be fine.

The University of Illinois lost their coach, have the support, have the donors, have everything you would need to be successful, yet have not been. Why? They hired Bruce Weber who could not leverage the Final Four he reached with Bill Self's players. Then hired John Groce who could not recruit well enough to compete in the Big 10 and even make the NCAA Tournament.
Illinois has what WSU has. Fan Support, money, donors, etc. and yet they were not able to match the success of Bill Self (coming from Tulsa) to maintain the status.
Initially, Illinois was able to hire Bill Self (again an upgrade from mid-major to high major...similar to Turgeon/Marshall low major to mid-major) but once they lost him, their fan support/program support was not enough to keep thier level of play the same and they have dropped off...fan support withstanding.

And they just hired Underwood for 3 million or so a year. Without that continued support, they couldn't have done that. Underwood is a pretty proven coach. He may not succeed but has the potential to.

[Stickboy46]

I agree fans need to show up to Redbird arena. The community support sucks. The fact is Bloomington-Normal isnt much of a sports town. In fact, the only thing BloNo seams to like are crappy country concerts. Still ISUr is regularly between 50-60% capacity according to the numbers, not 20-40%. They need to lower prices and even give away tickets for now to get up to 80-90% capacity. Get fans interested in a good product and they will come back. This, of course, requires a good product. As of now they have that. Do whatever it takes. Fake it until you make it. The status quo is ridiculous and I can't believe they'd rather stay at half full then 90% full. But, they seem to. Players want to play in capacity stadiums not a half empty arena where you can hear their on court conversation from the upper bowl. Better recruits equal a better product, which equals more wins, which equal more money. Put butts in the seats by any legal means necessary.

But does doing that mean Dan Muller will stick around if a school like Wake Forest comes calling and offers $2 million a year instead of his $500K+ right now?

If we sell out Redbird Arena next year for every game and we are good, then offseason comes and that offer comes in from Wake Forest. Is Dan Muller still here because of the fan support (assuming we don't have the donors to get close to $2 million a year)?

No way.

You are making the false assumption that Fan Support is just people there cheering for free. Fans are donors. As my example earlier. 8,000 season ticket holders paying 640 a year is the same as 5 x million dollar donations every year. That is the level of support that WSU had from their fan base BEFORE Alabama came calling. If ISU had a nearly sold out arena with paying season ticket holders and was paying Muller based on that support (so 1.5 million + incentives), then that 2 million dollar a year doesn't look so great.

[BirdsEyeView]

Then, again, if fan support brings in all that dough to help keep a coach around, WHY did WSU have to have Charles Koch lead a group of rich donors collect money to get him to stay?

If all that fan support brings in so much cash, why did that have to happen?


Your believe is that you matter in the hiring of the next coach. My belief is that if I am the head coach of the local high school team and the local D3 school comes calling I am leaving no matter if that D3 school brings 300 people to a game. I will arrive with a few reasons:

1. More prestigious job
2. More money
3. I think I can affect change in a higher profile job position

You think I am going to WSU because:

1. Fan Support
2. ???