MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby BEARZ77 » April 25th, 2020, 10:27 am

Nobody said they didn't earn it and the difference is those other endeavors are academic pursuits which is what college is about. Athletics are not; and don't give me they're training for their career when we know that the # who actually do so is a minuscule percent of college athletes. So again athletes are not denied the option to pursue their choice of educational opportunities where they want anymore than anyone else. It is a privilege to play college sports, and yes as with most privileges you have to earn them and they come with special considerations and rules , that's what privileges are about. Not everybody gets them, you do earn them, but they come with responsibilities and rules. Now,what rules are reasonable is the point of this argument, but don't act like there aren't tons of other rules that dictate who, under what circumstances, to what degree, where, etc that an athlete gets to participate in their sport.

And your use of the term "earned" is pretty subjective because it implies it is owed to them which it's not. The University extends the offer, they choose who they want, they don't owe it to any one. I'm all for athletes having rights and choice, but that doesn't mean I think they should not also have responsibilities and rules . As in many things in a free society as ours , the balance between the rights of the individual vs. the impact on the whole is always a tricky topic.

I like the fact a player can transfer and the # of reasons are varied and who can say one is more valid for that individual than another is. But think about what you're opening up here. If I'm a coach at a P-5 I'm going to leave 1-2 scholy's open[ I can get pretty high level walkons to cover me in noncon if i have an injury or 2] and I'll be pretty clear about my openings so I don't have to tamper individually; then at semester break if I'm
needing help to make a NCAA run, I'll just grab a couple top level players from some where else. It's just like the trading deadline in pro sports, cause the kids got the right to go where he wants , right. And if you put a rule on that, well that's restricting his right because can't regular students transfer at semester.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby Dean Wormer » April 25th, 2020, 10:34 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
It's not a privilege at all. They earn the scholarship. It isn't given to them at random.

Universities spend scholarship money on engineering students. They spend scholarship money on business students. On musicians. On pre med students. All of them can transfer without any punishment.

Why do fans see athletes as someone who should be super grateful for the scholarship they earned - and they should just bow down to the school that gave it to them? Especially if they don't feel the same way about someone on an academic scholarship.

Want the "special privilege?" - be better at basketball.


And there you have it. The solution for the mounting problem of college debt...be better at basketball. If all 40,000 students at Big Ten State were just better at basketball, they all would have a full ride. The short, portly kid working 3 jobs to pay his tuition has the same natural ability as Michael Jordan, just needs to work in the gym as hard.

You're seriously asking what is the difference between an academic scholarship and an athletic one at a college? Let's see..one is there to actively participate in higher education, the other is there to put a ball through a cylinder more times than the guys from the other college.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby tribecalledquest » April 25th, 2020, 10:35 am

BEARZ77 wrote:Nobody said they didn't earn it and the difference is those other endeavors are academic pursuits which is what college is about. Athletics are not; and don't give me they're training for their career when we know that the # who actually do so is a minuscule percent of college athletes. So again athletes are not denied the option to pursue their choice of educational opportunities where they want anymore than anyone else. It is a privilege to play college sports, and yes as with most privileges you have to earn them and they come with special considerations and rules , that's what privileges are about. Not everybody gets them, you do earn them, but they come with responsibilities and rules. Now,what rules are reasonable is the point of this argument, but don't act like there aren't tons of other rules that dictate who, under what circumstances, to what degree, where, etc that an athlete gets to participate in their sport.

And your use of the term "earned" is pretty subjective because it implies it is owed to them which it's not. The University extends the offer, they choose who they want, they don't owe it to any one. I'm all for athletes having rights and choice, but that doesn't mean I think they should not also have responsibilities and rules . As in many things in a free society as ours , the balance between the rights of the individual vs. the impact on the whole is always a tricky topic.

I like the fact a player can transfer and the # of reasons are varied and who can say one is more valid for that individual than another is. But think about what you're opening up here. If I'm a coach at a P-5 I'm going to leave 1-2 scholy's open[ I can get pretty high level walkons to cover me in noncon if i have an injury or 2] and I'll be pretty clear about my openings so I don't have to tamper individually; then at semester break if I'm
needing help to make a NCAA run, I'll just grab a couple top level players from some where else. It's just like the trading deadline in pro sports, cause the kids got the right to go where he wants , right. And if you put a rule on that, well that's restricting his right because can't regular students transfer at semester.


If the only valid reason to force guys to sit out is because it might make things harder for a coach or a program isn't a good enough one to take the right away from the player.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby BEARZ77 » April 25th, 2020, 11:03 am

tribecalledquest wrote:f the only valid reason to force guys to sit out is because it might make things harder for a coach or a program isn't a good enough one to take the right away from the player.


I've seen that reasoning thrown out a lot to; but never one I would use. I'd more focus on it invites more corruption and tampering[ you think Robbins wasn't tampered with ??} The fact that transfers lose credit hours [ up to 40 on average] and graduate at lower rates than those who don't [ again , it's STUDENT -athlete]. It will actually probably lead to less athletes getting scholarships because why wouldn't you leave a scholy or 2 open for that high level transfer guy possibility. There are tons more reasons other than just coaching comforts involved here. Again, I'm for freedom of movement and choice, but they have that now , but with rules. The # 1 reason I've heard the NCAA wants to move on this is because they opened up pandora's box with a poorly thought out and inconsistent waiver process that now has almost every transfer filing for a waiver and they want done with it. That's a poor reason. The graduate transfer rule is so totally bogus as I think something like less than 20% of those using it actually complete a graduate degree.

I just think there are ways to give players the opportunity to make choices w/o having to open up the system to the kind of problems this poorly thought out proposal would invite.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby tribecalledquest » April 25th, 2020, 11:50 am

Dean Wormer wrote:
tribecalledquest wrote:
It's not a privilege at all. They earn the scholarship. It isn't given to them at random.

Universities spend scholarship money on engineering students. They spend scholarship money on business students. On musicians. On pre med students. All of them can transfer without any punishment.

Why do fans see athletes as someone who should be super grateful for the scholarship they earned - and they should just bow down to the school that gave it to them? Especially if they don't feel the same way about someone on an academic scholarship.

Want the "special privilege?" - be better at basketball.


And there you have it. The solution for the mounting problem of college debt...be better at basketball. If all 40,000 students at Big Ten State were just better at basketball, they all would have a full ride. The short, portly kid working 3 jobs to pay his tuition has the same natural ability as Michael Jordan, just needs to work in the gym as hard.

You're seriously asking what is the difference between an academic scholarship and an athletic one at a college? Let's see..one is there to actively participate in higher education, the other is there to put a ball through a cylinder more times than the guys from the other college.


You made my point. This is on the NCAA trying to claim they are the same as “other” students to keep it amateur. You and I know it’s not amateur but that’s now how it is sold by the legislative branch. Let’s just make it professional, pay them and then have them sign contracts which touch on the transfer issue.

And guys who play soccer or women who play lacrosse don’t have to sit out if they transfer - even through they are just asked to put a ball in a net more than the people from another college.

Why do some sports require sit outs and some don’t?
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby BEARZ77 » April 25th, 2020, 12:27 pm

If you're gonna make them professionals, then remove it from colleges and make em professional. But you know as well as I most of these kids couldn't make it that way. Other than a few players a year like a Zion, nobody's gonna pay big money to watch them play based on their name or their abilities. We pay to watch them because they represent something we support, our University. That's something all these people who say the players are getting ripped off fail to realize, nobody would pay to see them play if they didn't have the name of the university on their uniform. Players come and go and yeah while they're here we support them, get enthused about them, etc' etc. but put them outside the context of a University setting and i'm not likely to spend much time or money to watch them. They'd just be an even more inferior G league , who cares. A few I'm sure but not that many.

I think it's great that they should get paid for their likeness being used and any advertising contracts they can individually get is fine with me. But 99% of college athletes only have marketing value when it's about the University they represent, once they're gone, except for a nostalgia day here and there , they just aren't as big a thing as many would like to think. That's not a knock on their skills, their hardwork, etc,it's just college athletics are popular because they're COLLEGE athletics. There's plenty of professional sports for those who want that, but as you see yearly with attempts at new professional leagues, if it isn't the very top level of that sport, there isn't much money to be had in support.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby patnb » April 25th, 2020, 3:54 pm

I mean we do realize there is only like 6 total NCAA sports that require you to sit out when to transfer, right?

Why isn't that enforced on the other 30 or so sponsored?
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby BEARZ77 » April 26th, 2020, 6:22 am

The reality is it's gonna happen and just like everything else, life will gone on. But these things don't get pushed thru because it benefits players or the good of the game. Despite most coaches protests, once it gets passed, they'll figure out how to benefit from it, at least the ones in best position to do so. I've seen a lot of smart people conjecture about various scenarios, and some are pretty scary for mids and low majors. It's just so obvious that what we've seen in football is coming in basketball where we're relegated to a second class status, not that we aren't now, but at least we've seen in the Valley that even under the current system , we still had the chance to make a FF and contend for a NC. In football only about 50-60 teams even have that chance [ actually only about 10-12 actually have the resources] and if you don't believe that remember that UCF, a card carrying FBS team went 2 seasons undefeated, beat SEC teams and never once sniffed the playoffs. That's a tragedy no matter whether you think they had a legit chance to win or not.

I do believe once this is passed, you'll see scenarios like the one I mentioned if not during the season certainly even more of the same in the off. Think about it; you're a MVC team with a solid veteran lineup and a couple quality recruits added to make your run, picked to contend for your conference title. You have a really good squad , but it gets off to a slow start in the noncon, maybe 8-4, 7-5, so you know you're down to the MVC tourney as you're only chance to dance, but you've been playing good ball your last 3-4 games and are looking good heading into the conference. Kansas just had it's star pg go down with an acl and has a National Title contender, and Arkansas is kinda in the mix for the tourney but needs a solid conference season to make it. Both have left open scholys for emergency adds and you have a pair really quality junior guys who could help them, who both know you're down to pretty tough chances , so at semester break they transfer to KU and the Hawgs, cause they want that chance to dance. You already had an injury, so now you're down to 10 players and your season tanks. You had a pair of quality freshman , but that off season knowing you're now in a rebuild mode, both transfer out; great for the players but is that good for the game ?? Welcome to the farm system.

We'll adapt, raid lower level teams if we can, but players will be hesitant to move up to us , because it's a 1 time transfer w/o penalty and they know better chances will come when P-5's get desperate. Why stop at double AA when a potential jump to the majors might come . Start wherever, but the goal is the top. And of course that next summer that P-5 is gonna recruit over you, but gosh, you already had your one transfer. Maybe you were good enough to make it work, but if not, hey they were desperate and you were willing so now they move on. Maybe that P-5 coach lets you know he really doesn't have a role for you now, so you can be run off, transfer and now sit [if the new rules allow] or quit college cause you don't have a scholy for next year.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby tribecalledquest » April 26th, 2020, 8:29 am

patnb wrote:I mean we do realize there is only like 6 total NCAA sports that require you to sit out when to transfer, right?

Why isn't that enforced on the other 30 or so sponsored?


Exactly. And you know what - it’s not the “wild, Wild West” in those sports with people transferring all the time. This is way more fear based than fact based.
Last edited by tribecalledquest on April 26th, 2020, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MVC - Basketball Players in the 2020 Transfer Portal

Postby tribecalledquest » April 26th, 2020, 8:31 am

BEARZ77 wrote:The reality is it's gonna happen and just like everything else, life will gone on. But these things don't get pushed thru because it benefits players or the good of the game. Despite most coaches protests, once it gets passed, they'll figure out how to benefit from it, at least the ones in best position to do so. I've seen a lot of smart people conjecture about various scenarios, and some are pretty scary for mids and low majors. It's just so obvious that what we've seen in football is coming in basketball where we're relegated to a second class status, not that we aren't now, but at least we've seen in the Valley that even under the current system , we still had the chance to make a FF and contend for a NC. In football only about 50-60 teams even have that chance [ actually only about 10-12 actually have the resources] and if you don't believe that remember that UCF, a card carrying FBS team went 2 seasons undefeated, beat SEC teams and never once sniffed the playoffs. That's a tragedy no matter whether you think they had a legit chance to win or not.

I do believe once this is passed, you'll see scenarios like the one I mentioned if not during the season certainly even more of the same in the off. Think about it; you're a MVC team with a solid veteran lineup and a couple quality recruits added to make your run, picked to contend for your conference title. You have a really good squad , but it gets off to a slow start in the noncon, maybe 8-4, 7-5, so you know you're down to the MVC tourney as you're only chance to dance, but you've been playing good ball your last 3-4 games and are looking good heading into the conference. Kansas just had it's star pg go down with an acl and has a National Title contender, and Arkansas is kinda in the mix for the tourney but needs a solid conference season to make it. Both have left open scholys for emergency adds and you have a pair really quality junior guys who could help them, who both know you're down to pretty tough chances , so at semester break they transfer to KU and the Hawgs, cause they want that chance to dance. You already had an injury, so now you're down to 10 players and your season tanks. You had a pair of quality freshman , but that off season knowing you're now in a rebuild mode, both transfer out; great for the players but is that good for the game ?? Welcome to the farm system.

We'll adapt, raid lower level teams if we can, but players will be hesitant to move up to us , because it's a 1 time transfer w/o penalty and they know better chances will come when P-5's get desperate. Why stop at double AA when a potential jump to the majors might come . Start wherever, but the goal is the top. And of course that next summer that P-5 is gonna recruit over you, but gosh, you already had your one transfer. Maybe you were good enough to make it work, but if not, hey they were desperate and you were willing so now they move on. Maybe that P-5 coach lets you know he really doesn't have a role for you now, so you can be run off, transfer and now sit [if the new rules allow] or quit college cause you don't have a scholy for next year.


You are worst case scenario, awfulizing here. And you act like the players are pawns with no independent thoughts, feelings or beliefs. If a coach makes it a place the player wants to stay - he will stay. The players have control of what they do - not the coaches. As it should be.
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