Another Expansion/Realignment Thread

[TylerDurden]

You can't use this kind of logic, though. I always use the 1995-forward A10 as an example:

In 1995

Duquesne (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Geo Washington (NCAAs 1993, 1994)
UMass (NCAAs 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
St. Bonaventure (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Rhode Island (NCAAs 1988, 1993)
Temple (1989 only NCAA miss 1984-; 3 Elite 8s between 1988 and 1993)
St. Joe's (NCAAs 1981, 1982, 1986)

Said goodbye to Rutgers and West Virginia and welcomed

Virginia Tech (NCAAs 1980, 1985, 1986)
Xavier (9 NCAAs 1983-1995)
LaSalle (National power in the 1980's: 6 NCAAs 1982-1994)
Dayton (NCAAs 1984, 1985, 1990)
Fordham (entered winning 3 Patriot League titles 1991-94, NCAA in 1992)

At the time, the expectations were that Fordham, La Salle and Xavier were the good adds.

I'm not following your line of thinking here vis-a-vis WSU/OSU to the WCC.

But, I don't think you're remembering Fordham correctly from that time period.

Fordham was 6-8 in the Patriot the year before the joined the A10, and 8-5 in both of the years before that. That NCAA tournament in 92 was the only one they had seen in 21 years.

I probably wouldn't call LaSalle a national power in the 80s either, but they did have Lionel Simmons and a really noteworthy season in 89-90, akin to Bradley's 85-86 season.

[IllinoisState]

I think you might be overvaluing what Oregon State and Washington State are as basketball programs. You also can't assume Pac 12 recruits in the WCC, so you can't assume they'll be the same teams...which leads me to the main point: these are both pretty bad programs.

Even with the luxury of playing in a power conference, Oregon State has been to two NCAAs in 34 years and Washington State hasn't been to the NCAA tournament in 17 years.

So you're taking bad programs and putting them in a worse league in a world where the transfer portal exists and expect them to be quality depth?

I think that's a bold assumption.

These two weren't left behind by accident. They are two of the three lowest basketball budgets in the Pac 12 and Washington State athletics has a $75-100 million deficit (depending on what source you use) it's trying to work through.

They parked programs in the WCC to save money.

All this doesn't mean that the WCC shouldn't be glad to have them, but from a basketball perspective, they aren't likely to move the needle one way or another.

You can't use this kind of logic, though. I always use the 1995-forward A10 as an example:

In 1995

Duquesne (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Geo Washington (NCAAs 1993, 1994)
UMass (NCAAs 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
St. Bonaventure (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Rhode Island (NCAAs 1988, 1993)
Temple (1989 only NCAA miss 1984-; 3 Elite 8s between 1988 and 1993)
St. Joe's (NCAAs 1981, 1982, 1986)

Said goodbye to Rutgers and West Virginia and welcomed

Virginia Tech (NCAAs 1980, 1985, 1986)
Xavier (9 NCAAs 1983-1995)
LaSalle (National power in the 1980's: 6 NCAAs 1982-1994)
Dayton (NCAAs 1984, 1985, 1990)
Fordham (entered winning 3 Patriot League titles 1991-94, NCAA in 1992)

At the time, the expectations were that Fordham, La Salle and Xavier were the good adds.

Not sure about Rutgers, but don’t think West Virginia was ever a member of the A-10

West Virginia and Rutgers 1976 - 1995.

[Birdfan2018]

This seemingly locks Gonzaga into place for the next two years. It will be great for the league's metrics especially if St Mary's rebounds from a down season next year (even Gonzaga is a bit down from where they've been the past few years). Not sure what will happen after that. This is not good for the MVC in when it comes to our hopes of being a consistent two bid league again. Oregon State and Washington State should be solid enough to add real depth to the conference beyond their usual 3 or so top 100 teams.

I think you might be overvaluing what Oregon State and Washington State are as basketball programs. You also can't assume Pac 12 recruits in the WCC, so you can't assume they'll be the same teams...which leads me to the main point: these are both pretty bad programs.

Even with the luxury of playing in a power conference, Oregon State has been to two NCAAs in 34 years and Washington State hasn't been to the NCAA tournament in 17 years.

So you're taking bad programs and putting them in a worse league in a world where the transfer portal exists and expect them to be quality depth?

I think that's a bold assumption.

These two weren't left behind by accident. They are two of the three lowest basketball budgets in the Pac 12 and Washington State athletics has a $75-100 million deficit (depending on what source you use) it's trying to work through.

They parked programs in the WCC to save money.

All this doesn't mean that the WCC shouldn't be glad to have them, but from a basketball perspective, they aren't likely to move the needle one way or another.

You can't use this kind of logic, though. I always use the 1995-forward A10 as an example:

In 1995

Duquesne (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Geo Washington (NCAAs 1993, 1994)
UMass (NCAAs 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
St. Bonaventure (0 NCAAs 1979-1995)
Rhode Island (NCAAs 1988, 1993)
Temple (1989 only NCAA miss 1984-; 3 Elite 8s between 1988 and 1993)
St. Joe's (NCAAs 1981, 1982, 1986)

Said goodbye to Rutgers and West Virginia and welcomed

Virginia Tech (NCAAs 1980, 1985, 1986)
Xavier (9 NCAAs 1983-1995)
LaSalle (National power in the 1980's: 6 NCAAs 1982-1994)
Dayton (NCAAs 1984, 1985, 1990)
Fordham (entered winning 3 Patriot League titles 1991-94, NCAA in 1992)

At the time, the expectations were that Fordham, La Salle and Xavier were the good adds.

West Virginia left the Southern Conference in 1968 and became an Independent. In 1991 they joined the Big East Conference where they remained until 2012 when they joined the Big 12

[MissouriValleyUnite]

^ That's WVU football.

WVU basketball was a founding member of the ECBL/Eastern-8 in 1976, which soon became the Atlantic-10. They remained there until becoming a full member of the Big East in 1995 (they were initially a FB-only member of the Big East in 1991).

[squirrel]

At the time, the expectations were that Fordham, La Salle and Xavier were the good adds.

I'm not following your line of thinking here vis-a-vis WSU/OSU to the WCC.

But, I don't think you're remembering Fordham correctly from that time period.

I remember well. The thinking RE: Fordham was that they would benefit from starting to offer scholarships and owning NYC, at least in the scope of the league. But of course, there was a lot of over-inflation and over-projection of NY-area teams being able to capitalize on that talent at that particular time (see Felipe Lopez/St. John's). Also, NY-based MAAC teams had Beilein and Fraschilla (who moved from Manhattan to St. John's in '96) and the Rams failed to carve out any stake in the City in that context. In 1995, both St. Peter's and Manhattan were in the NCAA (with Manhattan winning a game) and Canisius reached MSG in the NIT. But the logic at the time was that the A10 would be the bigger league and Fordham would be #2 to only St. John's in the city with the move.

But my point regarding Oregon St and Washington St is when you look at them only in the vacuum of their previous home or established history when dropping them into a new setting, is that ultimately, the past is not a guarantor of what to expect.

So, even if you take Fordham out of the equation in my example. The logic at the time was still that La Salle and Xavier were good adds and Dayton was just filler. Some of the programs that struggled in the A10 previously became a lot more competitive.

Or to put it in Valley terms, no one thought Loyola was a good add and the consensus was Valpo was a good add.

[TylerDurden]

At the time, the expectations were that Fordham, La Salle and Xavier were the good adds.

I'm not following your line of thinking here vis-a-vis WSU/OSU to the WCC.

But, I don't think you're remembering Fordham correctly from that time period.

I remember well. The thinking RE: Fordham was that they would benefit from starting to offer scholarships and owning NYC, at least in the scope of the league. But of course, there was a lot of over-inflation and over-projection of NY-area teams being able to capitalize on that talent at that particular time (see Felipe Lopez/St. John's). Also, NY-based MAAC teams had Beilein and Fraschilla (who moved from Manhattan to St. John's in '96) and the Rams failed to carve out any stake in the City in that context. In 1995, both St. Peter's and Manhattan were in the NCAA (with Manhattan winning a game) and Canisius reached MSG in the NIT. But the logic at the time was that the A10 would be the bigger league and Fordham would be #2 to only St. John's in the city with the move.

But my point regarding Oregon St and Washington St is when you look at them only in the vacuum of their previous home or established history when dropping them into a new setting, is that ultimately, the past is not a guarantor of what to expect.

So, even if you take Fordham out of the equation in my example. The logic at the time was still that La Salle and Xavier were good adds and Dayton was just filler. Some of the programs that struggled in the A10 previously became a lot more competitive.

Or to put it in Valley terms, no one thought Loyola was a good add and the consensus was Valpo was a good add.

Interestingly, that was my point as well, though I was rebuking the idea that they're a good addition simply because they're "dropping" levels by citing their pretty bleak records despite having advantages of being in a power conference.

The A10 was a different time, to be sure, so I won't dispute if you remember media or other hype around the potential of Fordham - but they weren't a good program. I don't recall that hype or perhaps I just didn't pay enough attention. Xavier was the biggest catch by far because of its sustained success and, to be fair, it took Dayton a bit to become semi-relevant.

BUT - the caveat with most of those schools is that they were jumping up in levels. Schools that do that tend to have ambition and sometimes it works (Loyola to the MVC, Creighton to the BE) and sometimes it doesn't (Valpo to the MVC). There's far less data about dropping levels and the resulting impact. I guess WSU/OSU will provide some data from that perspective.

[squirrel]

UMass to the MAC for all sports, including basketball.

Athletic article suggests Missouri State could be CUSA's next add.

[VUGrad1314]

Stupid move by UMass sacrificing their entire athletic department on football's altar. It would likewise be stupid for Missouri State to leave The Valley. Sigh... we can't have nice things... we finally get rolling as a strong conference and we potentially lose one of our beat overall athletic departments. Do we go with St Thomas if the Bears go? Do we stop at 12 or try to grow to 14? Feels like SDSU has fallen off in hoops a bit so I don't see expansion past 12. I just feel like this isn't going to be the only move and the only way this makes sense is if UMass isn't the only A10 team leaving. Maybe the Big East is going to expand because their position is threatened by the strengthening of the Big 10 SEC and Big XII in basketball.

[Kyle_Saluki_17]

Stupid move by UMass sacrificing their entire athletic department on football's altar. It would likewise be stupid for Missouri State to leave The Valley. Sigh... we can't have nice things... we finally get rolling as a strong conference and we potentially lose one of our beat overall athletic departments. Do we go with St Thomas if the Bears go? Do we stop at 12 or try to grow to 14? Feels like SDSU has fallen off in hoops a bit so I don't see expansion past 12. I just feel like this isn't going to be the only move and the only way this makes sense is if UMass isn't the only A10 team leaving. Maybe the Big East is going to expand because their position is threatened by the strengthening of the Big 10 SEC and Big XII in basketball.

I’d be more worried about the A10 trying to poach Belmont than Missouri State leaving. Better market, better basketball program.

[VUGrad1314]

Why on Earth would that make sense for either side? Also I don't think Belmont stacks up with the A10 budgetarily