Greatest players in MVC history - where does Doug fall?

[ihsi]

You gys have him too low. How many first team All Americans have there been from the MVC?

If Doug has another great season, we'll be asking how many two time first team All Americans has the Valley produced. That's got to be a pretty short list.

[CBB_Fan]

You gys have him too low. How many first team All Americans have there been from the MVC?

If Doug has another great season, we'll be asking how many two time first team All Americans has the Valley produced. That's got to be a pretty short list.

Can't find a list that shows Valley Players with First/Second/Third/Honorable Mention All-American status, so here is the list of players that have been 2-time All-Americans, any team:

Larry Bird - 3
Hersey Hawkins - 3
Ed Macauley - 2
Oscar Robertson - 3 (also 3-time National PoY)
Joe Allen - 2
Benoit Benjamin - 2
Ron Bonham - 2
Paul Endacott - 2
Paul Hogue - 2
Kyle Korver - 2
Bob Kurland - 3
Bob Mattick -2
Gene Melchiorre - 2
Dave Stallworth - 3
Wes Unseld - 3
Chet Walker - 3
John S. Williams - 3

Not so short of list, huh? Also, 7 national PoYs in that list (3 from Robertson). 6 players in the Naismith Hall of Fame, along with 5 coaches (Phog Allen, Denny Crum, Eddie Hickey, Henry Iba, and Ralph Miller).

[ihsi]

Not so short of list, huh? Also, 7 national PoYs in that list (3 from Robertson). 6 players in the Naismith Hall of Fame, along with 5 coaches (Phog Allen, Denny Crum, Eddie Hickey, Henry Iba, and Ralph Miller).

I said 2 time First Team All Americans. I know Korver and Benjamin never were, so your list is inaccurate. Being an honorable mention All American is quite a bit different from being one of the top 5 players in the nation for that year.

[CBB_Fan]

Not so short of list, huh? Also, 7 national PoYs in that list (3 from Robertson). 6 players in the Naismith Hall of Fame, along with 5 coaches (Phog Allen, Denny Crum, Eddie Hickey, Henry Iba, and Ralph Miller).

I said 2 time First Team All Americans. I know Korver and Benjamin never were, so your list is inaccurate. Being an honorable mention All American is quite a bit different from being one of the top 5 players in the nation for that year.

Why can't people read?

Can't find a list that shows Valley Players with First/Second/Third/Honorable Mention All-American status, so here is the list of players that have been 2-time All-Americans, any team:

Taking the time to look up those players:

Larry Bird: 2-time consensus First Team
Hersey Hawkins: 1-time consensus First team once, 2 "other" teams
Ed Macauley: 2-time consensus First Team
Oscar Robertson: 3-time consensus First Team
Joe Allen: 2-time All-American (probably first-team, but can't tell if they divided it that way back then)
Benoit Benjamin: 3rd-team
Rod Bonham: 1-time First team, 1-time Second Team
Paul Endacott: 2-time All-American (NPoY for one year, probably 1st Team equivalent both times)
Paul "Duke" Hogue: 1-time Third Team, 1-time First Team (Helm's NPoY)
Kyle Korver: 1-time Second Team, 1-time Honorable Mention
Bob Kurland: 3-time All American (NPoY for one year), first 7 footer in the game and first to dunk regularly
Bob Mattick: 1-time Third Team, 1-time Honorable Mention
Gene Melchiorre: 1-time First Team, 1-time Honorable Mention
Dave Stallworth: 1-time of each First, Second, and Third
Wes Unseld: 2-time First Team
Chet Walker: 2-time First Team, 1-time Second
John S. Williams: Can't find anything. Probably 2-time Honorable Mention

So, the list of 2-time first teamers (or equivalent) is down to:
Larry Bird
Ed Macauley
Oscar Robertson
Joe Allen
Paul Endacott
Bob Kurland
Wes Unseld
Chet Walker

With many of those players also having a national PoY trophy of one form or another.

[Wufan]

You gys have him too low. How many first team All Americans have there been from the MVC?

If Doug has another great season, we'll be asking how many two time first team All Americans has the Valley produced. That's got to be a pretty short list.

Bottom line is that Doug is not currently a top 10, though he probably will be by the time his career is done. Doug is likely not a top five ever...and if he is, then it is because he was National Player of the Year and/or took Creighton to the Final Four.

[ihsi]

You gys have him too low. How many first team All Americans have there been from the MVC?

If Doug has another great season, we'll be asking how many two time first team All Americans has the Valley produced. That's got to be a pretty short list.

Bottom line is that Doug is not currently a top 10, though he probably will be by the time his career is done. Doug is likely not a top five ever...and if he is, then it is because he was National Player of the Year and/or took Creighton to the Final Four.

Agreed about the current ranking however at this time next year he almost certainly will be Top 5-10. If he stays 4 years who knows?

[CBB_Fan]

You gys have him too low. How many first team All Americans have there been from the MVC?

If Doug has another great season, we'll be asking how many two time first team All Americans has the Valley produced. That's got to be a pretty short list.

Bottom line is that Doug is not currently a top 10, though he probably will be by the time his career is done. Doug is likely not a top five ever...and if he is, then it is because he was National Player of the Year and/or took Creighton to the Final Four.

It does depend on whether you count players from schools no longer in the MVC or that weren't in the MVC when they played. If you only consider players that played in current MVC schools, while the school was a member of the MVC, I think he might have a shot at top 5. That would take Wes Unseld, Oscar, Kurland, Endacott, and Macauley off the list at least. All of those players have either an NBA MVP, a college PoY award, or both.

[Aargh]

If you ask me who I'd rather have on a team - Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, or Dougie, I'd take Carr and Levingston without a moment's hesitation.

Those guys all played with one or two other long-term NBA players on their teams, so their numbers were limited by the talent around them.

Dougie gets good numbers because he's the best option on the team. CU plays a style that really pops the stats sheet. Not much D, so there's lots of points, possessions, and rebounds. Dougie is a good player and his stats get him national attention - especially after he got lots of press on the USA U18 team.

Putting him in the top 20 at this point in his career is not accurate. If Dougie were going against some of the better players in MVC history that I recall (mid-'60's and on), I doubt he'd be more than a 12 points, 6 boards guy. In the '60's and '70's EVERY Valley team had a 6'9" or taller skywalker (or monster like Unseld). The way Dougie gets his boards - and the resulting points from those boards - would have resulted in his getting up off his butt around the FT line against those players.

[Ricardo del Rio]

NO. Not even close.

+1

Some folks on this fine forum have been smokin' again.

[Ricardo del Rio]

hmmmm....Walt Frazier was from SIU.....Lewis Lloyd....Xavier McD......

I think the next two years also will be informative as it seems many that stand out as Valley players find it more competitive as Valley teams "figure them out" and learn to play against them better.

He is definately a top competitor when it comes to "basketball sense" , that may be his best asset.

I will trade you two Dougies for one Lewis Lloyd.

Lloyd does not get much all time pub, but he was a real special player. A scoring machine.