ORU discussing membership with MVC

[mvcfan]

A lot of ignorant snobbery on this thread...................

Ignorant stupidityis more worrisom than snobbery.

[DoubleJayAlum]

You know if we applied this admission standard to the sitting members of the MVC I'm not sure we could justify keeping everybody in place.

When looking for expansion options, the selection criteria should not match that of a conference's weakest member.

When the Big 10 decided to add schools, did they look for schools that most resembled Northwestern?

When the A10 looked at additions, did they look for schools that resembled Fordham?

Of course not.

You set your standards high as any addition has to provide some sort of additional, tangible benefit. Otherwise, you are just watering down revenues by including another school in the distribution of NCAA tourney money. Further, not wanting a particular school does not mean that one thinks they are better than that school; it just means that you don't think the candidate has a lot to offer that will improve the conference.

[Bluejay09Bear06]

When looking for expansion options, the selection criteria should not match that of a conferences weakest member.

Agree 100%.

[CaseyGarrisonforPrez]

You know if we applied this admission standard to the sitting members of the MVC I'm not sure we could justify keeping everybody in place.

When looking for expansion options, the selection criteria should not match that of a conferences weakest member.

When the Big 10 decided to add schools, did they look for schools that most resembled Northwestern?

When the A10 looked at additions, did they looks for schools that resembled Fordham?

Of course not.

You set your standards high as any addition has to provide some sort of additional, tangible benefit. Otherwise, you are just watering down revenues by including another school in the distribution of NCAA tourney money. Further, not wanting a particular school does not mean that one thinks they are better than that school; it just means that you don't think the candidate has a lot to offer that will improve the conference.

Good point. I hadn't really thought of it like that before. Certainly any future addition would need to be add value to the Valley. I still think ORU would but I can see how others might feel differently.

[ORUgrad]

I'm really wondering which side (ORU or MVC) initiated the talks. ORU's recent move seems to suggest ot me that the MVC made the initial contact.

I think we did. ORU has been to the NCAA basketball and baseball tournament more times in recent years than most MVC schools even though it's clear that we have been in a lesser league. We won like 27 games last season so we aren't a pushover and would help the MVC RPI over time I think.

[Bluejay09Bear06]

ORU has been to the NCAA basketball and baseball tournament more times in recent years than most MVC schools even though it's clear that we have been in a lesser league.

I won't bother to look up baseball statistics, but exactly how many NCAA wins has Oral Roberts had in basketball in that time? How many single-digit seeds ? How many at-large bids? If you go strictly by NCAA bids in a weak league, you're just asking for trouble.

I did bother to look up basketball statistics. In Oral Roberts' three NCAA bids from 2006-2008, you never got closer to winning than a 16-point loss, and you never did better than a 13-seed. No thanks.

[CaseyGarrisonforPrez]

ORU has been to the NCAA basketball and baseball tournament more times in recent years than most MVC schools even though it's clear that we have been in a lesser league.

I won't bother to look up baseball statistics, but exactly how many NCAA wins has Oral Roberts had in basketball in that time? How many single-digit seeds ? How many at-large bids? If you go strictly by NCAA bids in a weak league, you're just asking for trouble.

I did bother to look up basketball statistics. In Oral Roberts' three NCAA bids from 2006-2008, you never got closer to winning than a 16-point loss, and you never did better than a 13-seed. No thanks.

ORU beat Kansas in Allen Fieldhouse the year that KU won the championship, 2008. That is about as good as it gets. They have hit rough patches in the Summit League Tournament a couple of years recently when they have had a super good ballclub. But in that league you have to win in front of rowdy fans in the Dakotas where it is far from neutral. Also in 2009-2010 they beat New Mexico and Missou which were two tournament teams. They aren't Wichita or Creighton or UNI or Missouri State exactly but I would put them right in that next grouping in our conference. It's a moot point because they aren't getting an invite but if we have the need they could be plugged right in.

In baseball they have a tremendous little program. Sunny Golloway cut his teeth there and with Wichita's listless program, ORU would be at the top of this conference with Missouri State and possibly Dallas Baptist.

I guess now comes the time in this argument where I'd have to ask the opponents of ORU or Murray or the Dakota schools...who exactly do you like in expansion? Notre Dame wasn't going to park their Olympic sports in the Missouri Valley Conference. Marquette isn't realistic. DePaul I am neutral about. SLUH isn't a headache we want or need. New Mexico State sounds fun but the geography isn't good and when you actually look at the school you wouldn't want them either. Maybe that's just it, there isn't anybody. It's just the ten of us and if the A10 or CUSA/SBC plucks someone up we all go looking for lifeboats like the Titanic is going down. Not a pleasant thought.

We might want to rethink things and "lower our standards to raise our percentages." Just an alternate thought. Ultimately as I have said many times I don't think my school's future (long-term) is tied to this conference. On the oft chance that it actually is then I want stability. If that means having to pinch our nostrils and lowering our holier than thou attitudes by letting someone we all don't thoroughly love into our home then so be it. We can still enjoy Arch Madness and all of the great Valley events that we have come to love. To me that beats the alternative. Just my two cents. There is strenghth in numbers and on that specific point I have yet to hear a really good counterargument.

[DUBulldog]

ORU has been to the NCAA basketball and baseball tournament more times in recent years than most MVC schools even though it's clear that we have been in a lesser league.

I won't bother to look up baseball statistics, but exactly how many NCAA wins has Oral Roberts had in basketball in that time? How many single-digit seeds ? How many at-large bids? If you go strictly by NCAA bids in a weak league, you're just asking for trouble.

I did bother to look up basketball statistics. In Oral Roberts' three NCAA bids from 2006-2008, you never got closer to winning than a 16-point loss, and you never did better than a 13-seed. No thanks.

ORU beat Kansas in Allen Fieldhouse the year that KU won the championship, 2008. That is about as good as it gets. They have hit rough patches in the Summit League Tournament a couple of years recently when they have had a super good ballclub. But in that league you have to win in front of rowdy fans in the Dakotas where it is far from neutral. Also in 2009-2010 they beat New Mexico and Missou which were two tournament teams. They aren't Wichita or Creighton or UNI or Missouri State exactly but I would put them right in that next grouping in our conference. It's a moot point because they aren't getting an invite but if we have the need they could be plugged right in.

In baseball they have a tremendous little program. Sunny Golloway cut his teeth there and with Wichita's listless program, ORU would be at the top of this conference with Missouri State and possibly Dallas Baptist.

I guess now comes the time in this argument where I'd have to ask the opponents of ORU or Murray or the Dakota schools...who exactly do you like in expansion? Notre Dame wasn't going to park their Olympic sports in the Missouri Valley Conference. Marquette isn't realistic. DePaul I am omnipotent about. SLUH isn't a headache we want or need. New Mexico State sounds fun but the geography isn't good and when you actually look at the school you wouldn't want them either. Maybe that's just it, there isn't anybody. It's just the ten of us and if the A10 or CUSA/SBC plucks someone up we all go looking for lifeboats like the Titanic is going down. Not a pleasant thought.

We might want to rethink things and "lower our standards to raise our percentages." Just an alternate thought. Ultimately as I have said many times I don't think my school's future (long-term) is tied to this conference. On the oft chance that it actually is then I want stability. If that means having to pinch our nostrils and lowering our holier than thou attitudes by letting someone we all don't thoroughly love into our home then so be it. We can still enjoy Arch Madness and all of the great Valley events that we have come to love. To me that beats the alternative. Just my two cents. There is strenghth in numbers and on that specific point I have yet to hear a really good counterargument.

I don't think the MVC needs to add teams just for the sake of adding teams. No sense bringing in teams that don't bring in either a very strong tradition or a large media presence.

And....I'm not sure you understand the word "omnipotent".

[Bluejay09Bear06]

Why aren't we raiding the Horizon for their top teams? Milwaukee, Loyola-Chicago, Valpo, and Cleveland State would be at the top of my list for expansion. They are all in densely-populated media markets, bring a lot of tradition and at least some name recognition, and leave our conference footprint largely intact. We need to make power moves, not "lower our standards" as Casey suggested.

[CaseyGarrisonforPrez]

Why aren't we raiding the Horizon for their top teams? Milwaukee, Loyola-Chicago, Valpo, and Cleveland State would be at the top of my list for expansion. They are all in densely-populated media markets, bring a lot of tradition and at least some name recognition, and leave our conference footprint largely intact. We need to make power moves, not "lower our standards" as Casey suggested.

I like UWM. I think that is a good fit and I do tend to forget about the eastern schools. Loyola is a disaster in most sports, don't want. Valpo is a school that nobody would care or know anything about if not for Bryce Drew hitting a lucky shot in 1997. Homer ran a corrupt program too, much like his kid. They are just outside Gary, Indiana. Not awesome, really don't want them. I know Cleveland State has a decent basketball program. I don't know much about them. I think it is a commuter school with limited success in most sports. And suspect academics. I hate to be negative but of that list I only like UWM.

All of those schools come from decent media markets but none of them draw any real coverage. I never hear about Valpo or Loyola on WGN or in the Sun Times or Tribune. Never. Bringing a lot of tradition/name recognition is interesting. I'm a hardcore sports fan and can only think of the Drew shot against Ole Miss that was really just luck, Cleveland State occasionally beating Butler (they beat Vandy this year early too) but I don't think "tradition." UWM supposedly has a good women's soccer program and their coach shares a last name with the NY Yankees shortstop. That ain't much tradition. Loyola might have won some NIT titles early on? I really don't know. I know Bradley fans crow about some of that stuff from the 1950s but that doesn't much matter. It's neat to have old trophies and stuff but it doesn't really account for tradition.

I still like ORU better but put them just ahead of UWM. As for those others from Cleveland and the Chicagoland, they aren't better than the Dakota schools. And I'm like the only person on here that will even slightly entertain them even.