Big Questions

[Aargh]

Stutz went to suburban small-school religion-based private schools. The rest of team went to (mostly) inner-city public schools. Other than Stutz, the rest of the team was primarily inner-city athletic guys and some JuCo's. Stutz was vocal, well-spoken, and viewed himself as the team leader.

Do you see why I think there may have been some chemistry issues? After he signed Stutz, Marshall hasn't really gone for many (if any) white, suburban, parochial-school players.

A lot of foreplay before finally getting to the word white

Unlike the situation with Stutz, there has been no evidence of players unable to make a pass to Baker or Wessel when those guys are in position and there's a passing lane available to them. There were a couple of guys who were never quite able to pull the trigger on an entry pass to Stutz. There was some overlap with players who couldn't find a passing lane to Stutz, but could find a way to get the ball to Wessel and Baker, so race is not the issue here.

This is only speculation on my part, but it's my opinion that kids who have gone to very small schools where everyone shared their political, moral, and spiritual beliefs are going to need a few years to learn how to deal with diversity. Those kids are likely to have outstanding character and be the type of person you'd love for your daughter to date, but that may not transfer seamlessly onto a basketball court.

[Redbird23]

How bout an ISU Wichita final that would be interesting.

[Aargh]

How bout an ISU Wichita final that would be interesting.

That might depend on your definition of "interesting".

WSU returns 6 players who played a total of 124 minutes in the F4 against the National Champion.

IlSU returns - uh, not quite that much.

I know IlSU fans are proud of their incoming class, but you gotta remember that other teams are bringing in good classes, too. WSU is bringing in 2 top-150 Fr, the #8 JuCo in the country, and getting a Fr wing and a Sr post coming off of red shirt years.

If it's the "final", and if it's in Wichita - it's Senior Night. If it's at IlSU - are there any Seniors to have a night for?

[BCPanther]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that UNI/Wichita is replacing Creighton/Wichita on the last day of the regular season, fwiw...

[rlh04d]

It's really not an indictment or criticism of Marshall or WSU that the Shox may have had chemistry/playing time issues some years despite having a ton of talent. He and his staff are obviously going to try to get all the high quality talent that they can. And lately they've been doing a better job of that than anyone in the MVC. It's a problem that most teams and coaches would love to have. But it does sometimes backfire. And I think the year we are referencing (3 years ago) is a good example.

Yes the Shox season ended up pretty darned good that year (winning the NIT). But for that level of talent you could argue they could/should have won the conference and made an NCAA run. They were definitely much, much deeper and more athletic than the Bears team that year - yet lost to them head to head. Yes the Bears underacheived too due to a lack of depth mainly due to injuries and bad luck. It's really just unfortunate for both teams (and the Valley) because both teams were certainly capable of good NCAA runs that year.

I don't think you're meaning to come off this biased, but you're basically saying that MoSt underachieved due to bad luck, and WSU underachieved because Marshall isn't a good enough coach to handle his players.

As for the other points from BEARZ77, I wasn't on here or on Shockernet for that season. I don't know what anyone was saying, and I only have your vague recollections about what "most" Shocker fans were saying. I don't know what anyone else was saying about that team. I didn't really think we were that good of a team going into that season -- I was caught off guard by the NIT run. I thought we were good enough to make the NCAA tournament, but not a great team. Each of the last two years have been better teams.

I thought we were a good team that nearly won the conference, weren't as good as a very solid MoSt team, probably should have both made the NCAA tournament, and we doubled down and decided if we were going to play in the NIT we were at least going to win it, while MoSt gave up.

[AngryWheat=FTW=]

How bout an ISU Wichita final that would be interesting.

That might depend on your definition of "interesting".

WSU returns 6 players who played a total of 124 minutes in the F4 against the National Champion.

IlSU returns - uh, not quite that much.

I know IlSU fans are proud of their incoming class, but you gotta remember that other teams are bringing in good classes, too. WSU is bringing in 2 top-150 Fr, the #8 JuCo in the country, and getting a Fr wing and a Sr post coming off of red shirt years.

If it's the "final", and if it's in Wichita - it's Senior Night. If it's at IlSU - are there any Seniors to have a night for?

WSU returns 6 players who played a total of 124 minutes in the F4 against the National Champion.

Very interesting fact there.

[glm38]

It's really not an indictment or criticism of Marshall or WSU that the Shox may have had chemistry/playing time issues some years despite having a ton of talent. He and his staff are obviously going to try to get all the high quality talent that they can. And lately they've been doing a better job of that than anyone in the MVC. It's a problem that most teams and coaches would love to have. But it does sometimes backfire. And I think the year we are referencing (3 years ago) is a good example.

Yes the Shox season ended up pretty darned good that year (winning the NIT). But for that level of talent you could argue they could/should have won the conference and made an NCAA run. They were definitely much, much deeper and more athletic than the Bears team that year - yet lost to them head to head. Yes the Bears underacheived too due to a lack of depth mainly due to injuries and bad luck. It's really just unfortunate for both teams (and the Valley) because both teams were certainly capable of good NCAA runs that year.

I don't think you're meaning to come off this biased, but you're basically saying that MoSt underachieved due to bad luck, and WSU underachieved because Marshall isn't a good enough coach to handle his players.

As for the other points from BEARZ77, I wasn't on here or on Shockernet for that season. I don't know what anyone was saying, and I only have your vague recollections about what "most" Shocker fans were saying. I don't know what anyone else was saying about that team. I didn't really think we were that good of a team going into that season -- I was caught off guard by the NIT run. I thought we were good enough to make the NCAA tournament, but not a great team. Each of the last two years have been better teams.

I thought we were a good team that nearly won the conference, weren't as good as a very solid MoSt team, probably should have both made the NCAA tournament, and we doubled down and decided if we were going to play in the NIT we were at least going to win it, while MoSt gave up.

Aren't we all as "fans" of our respective teams biased? But no I wasn't meaning to disparage Marshall at all. Just saying it's difficult for any coach to manage a deep and talented team and keep all the players happy. I'm a fan of Martin but some Bears fans thought Martin didn't do enough to develop the bench players we had that year and I agree.

There was no quit in the Bears that year. When you have such a short rotation players tend to wear down over the long season.

[rlh04d]

Aren't we all as "fans" of our respective teams biased?

Of course! That's why I said I didn't think you meant to come of "this biased." There was a level of bias you went to that I didn't think you intended.

[mvcfan]

The NIT Championship team lacked consistency, toughness, leadership, and BBIQ. Murry was the point guard most of the year but he wasn't really a point guard and while his leadership qualities were ok, he wasn't a strong leader. Kyles, Durley, Gabe (new to the team), Stutz, and Ellis were all talented but were not leaders nor did they exhibit strong BBIQ's. Only after Joe Ragland took over the team, and began to exhibit his talent/consistency during the NIT, did they begin to steam roll most of the teams they played.

This year's team with Armstead, FVV, Baker (glue type of player), Wessell, and Cotton all had the high BBIQ that a top team needs. In my opinion, the injuries to these players, is the reason that we didn't win the MVC. When we got some of them back, we caught fire.

This year, I don't see BBIQ or leadership being a problem. We will have to fight through a down spell as always, but we'll be able to handle it.

[Aargh]

In the NIT year, and the year before, Marshall had an unusual coaching challenge - J.T. Durley.

Durley didn't like to play D, had a horrible work ethic, didn't like contact around the basket, and preferred roaming the 3-point line when he was supposed to be posting up. Just getting Durley to pay attention and getting him into the weight room, and getting him to even try to play D was a major challenge.

The year before Marshall got here, Durley was injured. He gained a lot of weight and did no conditioning work during his injury time. When he was cleared to play, he more or less refused to get back into game shape, even though Turgeon needed him on the all-time tank team (ranked #8 nationally to 6th place in the Valley).

In Marshall's first year, Durley still didn't want to practice hard, or hit the weight room, or play within Marshall's system, but Marshall had no choice - the only other post was Stutz as a Fr.

By the time Durley was a Sr (the NIT year), Durley was at least making an effort in practice (just enough to not lose his schollie), and in the weight room, but still hanging on the perimeter to see if he could get a 3 off instead of posting up. Durley was a popular guy among his teammates - much more than Stutz.

Marshall's coaching challenge that year was to try to get Durley to do anything resembling Marshall's game plans and to keep Durley from leading the rest of the team down Durley's "I don't have to practice or put out any effort because I can hit some hoops" attitude.

Turgeon had ripped Durley in the press for Durley's unwillingness to rehab after an injury his Fr year. Durley was the exact opposite of what Marshall looks for in a player, and Marshall would have not renewed his schollie after Marshall's first year if there had been any way Marshall could have gotten through the next season without him.