Gregg Marshall

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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby rlh04d » August 21st, 2013, 11:09 am

glm38 wrote:Here's a pretty good top 10 list. These guys body of work exceeds Marshall IMO. But given that a lot of these guys are older so from that aspect if you are starting a team you might take Marshall over several of them.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/96 ... hes/page/7

Calhoun is retired.

I've seen a very similar list from BleacherReport that listed the top 25 -- and Marshall was #15, with Smart #14.

I'm not arguing body of work. Marshall is definitely left behind in body of work. But he is much younger than most of those guys and doesn't have anywhere near the level of talent to work with that they do. I'm saying strictly on a coaching ability level, I'd have him no worse than top 15. I'd consider sticking him above Calipari as well -- although Calipari clearly is the top recruiter in the country.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby Wufan » August 21st, 2013, 11:11 am

rlh04d wrote:
Cdizzle wrote:
Though, if I may tie this to the current thread discussion, Matta was out-coached by Marshall in their meeting. Certainly he owns body of work.

That's my point. I'm not underselling Matta -- his resume is elite.

However, I don't think anyone can watch the Ohio State and Wichita State game and not say that Marshall clearly out-coached Matta. I guess you could make the excuse that Matta was taking the game for granted and looking to the Final Four -- but that doesn't seem like something a good coach would do. Marshall clearly was the better coach in that game.


And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby rlh04d » August 21st, 2013, 11:16 am

Wufan wrote:And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!

Winning a game doesn't say that the coach that wins is better by any means. But Marshall was clearly the better coach in that tournament game.

We had Ohio State scouted and we were very well prepared. We knew what distances to play guys like Craft at. We knew what pressure to put onto people. We shifted lineups to compensate for any move they made. Ohio State, from my perception, didn't scout us at all, and simply tried to out-talent us.

I guess you can argue how much of that was on our assistant coaches as well. But I was very unimpressed with Ohio State's preparation for an Elite 8 game. Maybe that's on the players for not taking the coach's game plan seriously -- but that's also on the coach to make his players buy in.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby TylerDurden » August 21st, 2013, 12:13 pm

rlh04d wrote:
Wufan wrote:And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!

Winning a game doesn't say that the coach that wins is better by any means. But Marshall was clearly the better coach in that tournament game.

We had Ohio State scouted and we were very well prepared. We knew what distances to play guys like Craft at. We knew what pressure to put onto people. We shifted lineups to compensate for any move they made. Ohio State, from my perception, didn't scout us at all, and simply tried to out-talent us.

I guess you can argue how much of that was on our assistant coaches as well. But I was very unimpressed with Ohio State's preparation for an Elite 8 game. Maybe that's on the players for not taking the coach's game plan seriously -- but that's also on the coach to make his players buy in.


Let's pump the breaks just a bit here.

I understand you're a WSU and Marshall fan and this is an MVC forum, but to suggest that OSU and Matta didn't scout WSU and relied on its talent to win the game is silly. We're talking about a four-point game in the Elite 8. 70-66.

WSU just happened to outplay OSU in the first half more than OSU outplayed WSU in the second. Four points worth, to be exact. If Marshall clearly out-coached Matta in preparation/first-half, then Matta clearly out-coached Marshall from halftime on.

But really, there isn't anything clear about a four-point game.

I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a good coach and a lot of things point to him being in the top XX% of DI coaches. In fact, the points you make about WSU's preparation for games is very valid. They seem to be ready to go for just about every game. Credit where it's due there.

But just like you can't draw a lot of conclusions about a coach based on a couple of games against Evansville, you can't draw a conclusion about who you would take because of a four-point Elite 8 game.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby Cdizzle » August 21st, 2013, 2:35 pm

TylerDurden wrote:
rlh04d wrote:
Wufan wrote:And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!

Winning a game doesn't say that the coach that wins is better by any means. But Marshall was clearly the better coach in that tournament game.

We had Ohio State scouted and we were very well prepared. We knew what distances to play guys like Craft at. We knew what pressure to put onto people. We shifted lineups to compensate for any move they made. Ohio State, from my perception, didn't scout us at all, and simply tried to out-talent us.

I guess you can argue how much of that was on our assistant coaches as well. But I was very unimpressed with Ohio State's preparation for an Elite 8 game. Maybe that's on the players for not taking the coach's game plan seriously -- but that's also on the coach to make his players buy in.


Let's pump the breaks just a bit here.

I understand you're a WSU and Marshall fan and this is an MVC forum, but to suggest that OSU and Matta didn't scout WSU and relied on its talent to win the game is silly. We're talking about a four-point game in the Elite 8. 70-66.

WSU just happened to outplay OSU in the first half more than OSU outplayed WSU in the second. Four points worth, to be exact. If Marshall clearly out-coached Matta in preparation/first-half, then Matta clearly out-coached Marshall from halftime on.

But really, there isn't anything clear about a four-point game.

I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a good coach and a lot of things point to him being in the top XX% of DI coaches. In fact, the points you make about WSU's preparation for games is very valid. They seem to be ready to go for just about every game. Credit where it's due there.

But just like you can't draw a lot of conclusions about a coach based on a couple of games against Evansville, you can't draw a conclusion about who you would take because of a four-point Elite 8 game.


Marshall did make terrible coaching decisions by not playing his injured starters against Evansville.

In fact, this is something that the whole league needs to get their heads around. There have been a ridiculous number of posts about "the Valley must have been pretty good last year, because WSU only went 12-6 against those teams." It's fools gold. The WSU team that played the league schedule and the WSU team that played the NCAA tournament schedule weren't even close to on the same level. Watch and compare some of the games. The level of play is just incredibly different.

I'm not bitter. Injuries are part of the season. Other teams had injuries, too.The 12-6 league record is accurate to what the team was throughout that stretch. But given the drastic impact of team play from players that weren't available during all or parts of that 12-6 stretch, it's a terrible idea to compare any league team to the F4 team and assume similar results.

The bad news is that a lot of the Valley teams and fan bases are doing that this off-season.

The "potentially" good news for them is that they still don't have to face that team next year.

Before this year, I viewed Marshall as an above average D1 coach, with a personality that matched perfectly with WSU and the Wichita community. He's an excellent recruiter. He's very good at building/teaching a winning system with his guys and his style. He was decent at creating a gameplan. He was ok at in-game management. I think the gameplanning and in-game management took a major step forward last season, even from the first tip against VCU, but very much in NCAA play.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby TylerDurden » August 21st, 2013, 2:53 pm

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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby rlh04d » August 21st, 2013, 4:02 pm

TylerDurden wrote:
rlh04d wrote:
Wufan wrote:And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!

Winning a game doesn't say that the coach that wins is better by any means. But Marshall was clearly the better coach in that tournament game.

We had Ohio State scouted and we were very well prepared. We knew what distances to play guys like Craft at. We knew what pressure to put onto people. We shifted lineups to compensate for any move they made. Ohio State, from my perception, didn't scout us at all, and simply tried to out-talent us.

I guess you can argue how much of that was on our assistant coaches as well. But I was very unimpressed with Ohio State's preparation for an Elite 8 game. Maybe that's on the players for not taking the coach's game plan seriously -- but that's also on the coach to make his players buy in.


Let's pump the breaks just a bit here.

I understand you're a WSU and Marshall fan and this is an MVC forum, but to suggest that OSU and Matta didn't scout WSU and relied on its talent to win the game is silly. We're talking about a four-point game in the Elite 8. 70-66.

WSU just happened to outplay OSU in the first half more than OSU outplayed WSU in the second. Four points worth, to be exact. If Marshall clearly out-coached Matta in preparation/first-half, then Matta clearly out-coached Marshall from halftime on.

But really, there isn't anything clear about a four-point game.

I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a good coach and a lot of things point to him being in the top XX% of DI coaches. In fact, the points you make about WSU's preparation for games is very valid. They seem to be ready to go for just about every game. Credit where it's due there.

But just like you can't draw a lot of conclusions about a coach based on a couple of games against Evansville, you can't draw a conclusion about who you would take because of a four-point Elite 8 game.

There is a pretty big difference between preparing for an Elite 8 game and a regular season game. WSU coasted against Evansville and deserved to get burned. However, no one looks past an Elite 8 game.

As for Ohio State, we lost Hall and Early both for chunks of the second half. Regardless, OSU didn't really get into the game until there was about 10 minutes to go. We led for essentially the entire game, with a younger, less talented, smaller roster.

Two things stood out to me from that game: Marshall was the better coach, and Armstead ate Craft alive one on one.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby Wufan » August 21st, 2013, 4:59 pm

TylerDurden wrote:
rlh04d wrote:
Wufan wrote:And Marty Simmons was better than Marshall in two games last year…Matta is pretty bad ass!

Winning a game doesn't say that the coach that wins is better by any means. But Marshall was clearly the better coach in that tournament game.

We had Ohio State scouted and we were very well prepared. We knew what distances to play guys like Craft at. We knew what pressure to put onto people. We shifted lineups to compensate for any move they made. Ohio State, from my perception, didn't scout us at all, and simply tried to out-talent us.

I guess you can argue how much of that was on our assistant coaches as well. But I was very unimpressed with Ohio State's preparation for an Elite 8 game. Maybe that's on the players for not taking the coach's game plan seriously -- but that's also on the coach to make his players buy in.


Let's pump the breaks just a bit here.

I understand you're a WSU and Marshall fan and this is an MVC forum, but to suggest that OSU and Matta didn't scout WSU and relied on its talent to win the game is silly. We're talking about a four-point game in the Elite 8. 70-66.

WSU just happened to outplay OSU in the first half more than OSU outplayed WSU in the second. Four points worth, to be exact. If Marshall clearly out-coached Matta in preparation/first-half, then Matta clearly out-coached Marshall from halftime on.

But really, there isn't anything clear about a four-point game.

I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a good coach and a lot of things point to him being in the top XX% of DI coaches. In fact, the points you make about WSU's preparation for games is very valid. They seem to be ready to go for just about every game. Credit where it's due there.

But just like you can't draw a lot of conclusions about a coach based on a couple of games against Evansville, you can't draw a conclusion about who you would take because of a four-point Elite 8 game.


I rarely agree with Tyler Durden, but in this case, I believe he is correct.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby mvcfan » August 21st, 2013, 7:43 pm

No Wufan, you let Tyler off too easily. I'd like to hear about how Evansville, or Creighton, or UNI lost 3 starters to injuries this year and how while going through that type of adversity, they still won most of their games for over 3/4 of the league season without a few of their best players. People like to spout out about how WSU stubbed their toes (which I agree that we could have won talent wise), but we were playing without some of our best players with the highest BB IQ's in the league that we just couldn't easily replace. There was a reason why Wessell and Baker were starting the first 9-10 non-conference games.
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Re: Gregg Marshall

Postby Wufan » August 21st, 2013, 7:56 pm

mvcfan wrote:No Wufan, you let Tyler off too easily. I'd like to hear about how Evansville, or Creighton, or UNI lost 3 starters to injuries this year and how while going through that type of adversity, they still won most of their games for over 3/4 of the league season without a few of their best players. People like to spout out about how WSU stubbed their toes (which I agree that we could have won talent wise), but we were playing without some of our best players with the highest BB IQ's in the league that we just couldn't easily replace. There was a reason why Wessell and Baker were starting the first 9-10 non-conference games.


So I feel silly saying this, but I don't think Tyler ever said that. He said Matta was really good. CDizzle put up a straw man argument and then you get mad when Tyler doesn't respond...
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