Wichita State Mid-Major?

[mvcfan]

The definition if mid major is different for everyone.

A crap team from a "power 6" conference is typically awarded a major label by affiliation.

For a mid major team/conference, I think it takes long term sustained success to pull the label.

Has WSU played at a high major level the last 2 years, yes. No one would dispute that. For me, I need a longer sample size. Unfortunately, I don't have a set number that makes it. Gonzaga dominating everyone for years in their league and being an NCAA team and top 25 team year after year is what it takes. Memphis under coach Cal having years of top 5 and NCAA births and national runner up is what it takes.

For me, WSU isn't there....yet. They've had an amazing run and are on the way in my eyes. Give me a couple more years in the top 25, keep winning 14+ conf games and don't miss the Dance and I think it's enough to do it. Unfortunately, conference affiliation requires WSU to earn it more than some other schools who are "given" the high major label.

You have a short and very bad memory. WSU has been Top 25 for the past four years. They've been Top 10 the past two years. They were Top 5 for most of last year. Gonzaga never did that. Other than that you make a couple of good points.

[Ghost]

The definition if mid major is different for everyone.

A crap team from a "power 6" conference is typically awarded a major label by affiliation.

For a mid major team/conference, I think it takes long term sustained success to pull the label.

Has WSU played at a high major level the last 2 years, yes. No one would dispute that. For me, I need a longer sample size. Unfortunately, I don't have a set number that makes it. Gonzaga dominating everyone for years in their league and being an NCAA team and top 25 team year after year is what it takes. Memphis under coach Cal having years of top 5 and NCAA births and national runner up is what it takes.

For me, WSU isn't there....yet. They've had an amazing run and are on the way in my eyes. Give me a couple more years in the top 25, keep winning 14+ conf games and don't miss the Dance and I think it's enough to do it. Unfortunately, conference affiliation requires WSU to earn it more than some other schools who are "given" the high major label.

You have a short and very bad memory. WSU has been Top 25 for the past four years. They've been Top 10 the past two years. They were Top 5 for most of last year. Gonzaga never did that. Other than that you make a couple of good points.

Gonzaga has had more tourney runs though (not to mention that there are several teams in the WCC that make the NCAA tourney yearly).

While WSU has had a tremendous, amazing amount of success the last three years, they really only have the one NCAA tourney run:

2012: lost in first round
2013: final four
2014: lost in second round (as a #1 seed)

Of course, making the final four is a tremendous accomplishment, but it is one that several mid majors have made recently as well (VCU, Butler x2, George Mason) and it didn't result in any of them shedding the mid major label until they moved up a conference level. (Note: most publications do not consider the A10 a mid major league, but I certainly won't argue with those that do. However, it should be pointed out that the A10 did put 5 teams in the NCAA tourney).

[Aargh]

2014: lost in second round (as a #1 seed)

That loss did more to solidify WSU's national reputation than going 18-0 in the MVC.

We spent a lot of time joking about "quality losses" for the P5 teams last year, but WSU had the #1 "quality loss" of the entire season and did it on a major, major national stage.

Many think Kentucky played its best game of the season against WSU. Kentucky also finished out the tourney without Cauley-Stein, who played a significant role in UK's W over WSU.

[moshock]

The definition if mid major is different for everyone.

A crap team from a "power 6" conference is typically awarded a major label by affiliation.

For a mid major team/conference, I think it takes long term sustained success to pull the label.

Has WSU played at a high major level the last 2 years, yes. No one would dispute that. For me, I need a longer sample size. Unfortunately, I don't have a set number that makes it. Gonzaga dominating everyone for years in their league and being an NCAA team and top 25 team year after year is what it takes. Memphis under coach Cal having years of top 5 and NCAA births and national runner up is what it takes.

For me, WSU isn't there....yet. They've had an amazing run and are on the way in my eyes. Give me a couple more years in the top 25, keep winning 14+ conf games and don't miss the Dance and I think it's enough to do it. Unfortunately, conference affiliation requires WSU to earn it more than some other schools who are "given" the high major label.

You have a short and very bad memory. WSU has been Top 25 for the past four years. They've been Top 10 the past two years. They were Top 5 for most of last year. Gonzaga never did that. Other than that you make a couple of good points.

Gonzaga has had more tourney runs though (not to mention that there are several teams in the WCC that make the NCAA tourney yearly).

While WSU has had a tremendous, amazing amount of success the last three years, they really only have the one NCAA tourney run:

2012: lost in first round
2013: final four
2014: lost in second round (as a #1 seed)

Of course, making the final four is a tremendous accomplishment, but it is one that several mid majors have made recently as well (VCU, Butler x2, George Mason) and it didn't result in any of them shedding the mid major label until they moved up a conference level. (Note: most publications do not consider the A10 a mid major league, but I certainly won't argue with those that do. However, it should be pointed out that the A10 did put 5 teams in the NCAA tourney).

If you are going to bring up George Mason then you have to count our S16 run the same year. We also won the NIT - I know - I know - it's not the NCAA but I would guess that any other MVC team would give their left nard about right now to win it.

As a die hard Shocker fan, I could not care less what ??? major we are considered. I love where our program is at and am absolutely enjoying the ride.

[Rollbird5]

Just a thought: would u guys consider vcu a major program? They also made final four and are a perennial tournament team. Obviously no undefeated regular season like shockers but consistently one of the better teams

[Wufan]

Just a thought: would u guys consider vcu a major program? They also made final four and are a perennial tournament team. Obviously no undefeated regular season like shockers but consistently one of the better teams

I would...not that it matters.

[Aargh]

WSU's recent achievements

A S16 and a F4 in the last 8 years (under 2 different coaches)
An NIT championship (I know, I know - but it took winning 5 straight against good teams)
Multiple players going to the NBA (Mekel, Murry, Early)
Multiple AA's in the same year (Early and VanVleet last year)
Multiple pre-season AA's in the same year (VanVleet and Baker this year)
A national #2 ranking
A #1 NCAA seed
Actual and projected fairly high NBA picks (Early and (projected) Baker)
National Coach of the Year by about every body that picks one
An undefeated regular season and an NCAA record of 35-0 before losing a game

Regardless of the conference (including the MVC), any school that does that will be associated with the label of the conference they are in, but will start shedding the label for themselves. Any MVC school that can rack up that list of achievements will start shedding the label, just like WSU is starting to shed it now.

It doesn't hurt to have the recruiting classes the Shox have been getting. It's to the point where the scouting services raise the ratings of players when Marshall starts recruiting them. The F4 team had a D3 JuCo trfr (Early), a barely top-100 backup PG (VanVleet), and an unrated former walkon (Baker) as the instruments of destruction that took out Gonzaga (the #1 team in the nation) on the road to the F4. The scouting services now reconsider when Marshall goes after a recruit.

WSU has reached national recognition under two consecutive coaches. VCU, GMU, Gonzaga, and Butler can't claim that. Few has been at Gonzaga so long that Gonzaga is established. A coaching change is not expected to be disastrous.

Both WSU and Butler had huge dropoffs after a coaching change. Marshall took WSU from Thursday night to national prominence. The media and the public has Butler in the same spot they had WSU when Marshall arrived. VCU seems to be having a dropoff in national respect. Probably because WSU has taken over the conversation of the "hot non-P5 school".

[shockem]

Dan Monson actually started the Gonzaga run, Few has sustined it. They're still the model we are trying to emulate but I bet they would give their left nut for a Final 4.

[havoc]

WSU has reached national recognition under two consecutive coaches. VCU, GMU, Gonzaga, and Butler can't claim that.

Not true. Butler had just as much national recognition under Todd Lickliter, if not more, than WSU had under Turgeon. They were ranked almost the entire time he was there, had a top 10 ranking, went to 2 Sweet 16s, and Lickliter won National Coach of the Year.

[Ghost]

If you are going to bring up George Mason then you have to count our S16 run the same year. We also won the NIT - I know - I know - it's not the NCAA but I would guess that any other MVC team would give their left nard about right now to win it.

I think you missed the point a bit. The reference to George Mason was to say that they also made the FF, not that they had escaped the mid major "title."

The Sweet Sixteen was nice, but it was followed up shortly thereafter by two play-in-game losses and bad overall records.

WSU has had three really good years. They are still a mid major.