#12 Wichita State @ #18 Northern Iowa, 3 PM Saturday, ESPN2

[Wufan]

Surprises and non surprises from me:

I am surprised by the margin of victory and the fact that UNI was able to put up 70 on the Shockers.

I am not surprised that UNI held the Shockers in the 50's, just expected UNI to be there or low 60's as well.

I am not surprised that UNI shot the ball well (maybe 60% is unexpected, but they can and do shoot well).

I was surprised that Cotton was getting beaten off the dribble by Washpun and Mitchell as much as he was.

I was surprised that Marshall did not have a better plan for stopping Tuttle inside, though Seth was playing possessed.

I am not surprised that when both teams had to dip into their benches, that UNI's kept the intensity level up and provided more help.

Looking forward to the return match. Hope both teams keep winning and stay healthy.

This is a good post.

[musiccitybulldog]

I thought flops had gone the way of the buggy whip since it seems calls on charging seem to be a coin flip at best.

[Wufan]

I know that UNI used to have a reputation under McDermott for "clutch and grab" type stuff but since when is taking charges and using your body and strength "dirty"? I've never heard of Tuttle being a "dirty" player until this season and after watching my fair share of Iowa State and Big XII games this year I still have no idea what he does that isn't widely utilized by big men all over the country. I guess I'm just legitimately confused by what it is the crazies see that makes UNI so much different and dirtier than the rest of the MVC or D-I for that matter. I'm hoping I can just chalk it up to frustration and needing something to blame the Shox's vulnerability on? I know that feeling well as a UNI fan.

I do think Tuttle utilized the hell out of the hook to get past people, but by no means do I think that's dirty. The refs allowed it and he utilized it. That's smart basketball.

In a previous UNI game I watched (and I've seen them play 6 or 7 times this year and viewed the same thing in each game) I commented that Tuttle was "dirty", which was a poor word choice and I later recanted. On many offensive occasions Tuttle uses three moves that are illegal if I am seeing them correctly: lowering the shoulder, hook, grab. If you play on his body, Tuttle will put out the chicken wing prior to the spin. I saw this one time yesterday. If you play off of his body, Tut will lowers his shoulder and gives a bump. Now, maybe its just light contact and there is no advantage gained, but his positioning at the time of contact (knees bent, ball tucked, shoulders angled down) would appear that he is "charging" on the defensive player. I recall three instances of this yesterday. The third illegal movement is the grab. Unless you are watching the opponent, you won't see this. When he is boxed out, and the opponent brings his inside arm down to contain (also an illegal move if you wrap the arm) Tuttle will hold the inside arm of the defender close to his body until the ball caroms off the goal at which time he releases and goes for the rebound. The defender is left trying to rebound one handed until the last second which makes for difficult ball control and creates a 50/50 ball. I saw this twice yesterday. I'm guessing that I missed several examples of this type of play, but I don't care to go back and watch; however as a Panther fan, it might be particularly enjoyable to re-watch the game, and these subtitles can be easily viewed if you are looking for them.

Tuttle has done this all season, and it isn't called often. He is playing smart basketball. He also does many, many perfectly legal things that make him a great Valley player, but it was brought up and so I'm pointing it out if you are interested in reviewing for your own knowledge.

UNI as a whole is not a clutch and grab team this year (nor was it last year) and I wouldn't call them floppers (though I always thought Jake Koch was). They play a very strong defense and shoot exceedingly well. Washpan's ability to get to the rim and Tuttle's interior play really opens up the floor for the perimeter shooters, of which there are many.

[Wufan]

UNI gave WSU a good ole fashioned ass whooping yesterday, something we have not seen in years! Congratulations to the Panthers and their fans. As a WSU fan, I feel very comfortable saying that Northern Iowa was the far superior team that game and they have accomplished something great! Hopefully we will play a better game on the return.

[SHOXMVC]

Boy, that sure is compelling. Thanks for showing me this illuminating evidence against UNI. What a pack of cheaters those rascals are.

Go read my original post Mr. Butt Hurt. UNI was by far the better team, coach, etc...today. It wasn't even a contest after the first few minutes. I absolutely like your classy players, coach and fan base. Hell, I even still like you because you are passionate about your team. You are a little miss guided about your reputation about flopping, but I can overlook that. The ONLY issue, IN GENERAL, I have ever had with your team (EVER) is the insistent use of the flop as a defensive method. To be honest, it has been less the past 2 seasons, which I should have said original, and I apologize for that. In fact, yesterday, flopping had zero to do with the outcome or the flow of the game. One of our SN posters actually had a specific thread counting UNI's flops. You will be happy to know the count was only 6. Stop being naive, about the flopping thing. Over the course of Jake's tenure at UNI, flopping is a common theme. It's not the end of the world. It's not cheating. It is an annoying way to play defense though. Move on buckaroo, take a stand on something meaningful. You have a great team that me, 99.999999% of the Shocker, and other fan bases for that matter, respect highly. Be happy and proud about that.

[ISUBirds89]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

[glm38]

Regarding dirty play: IMO if you look at most tough physical players closely you are going to see things that are technically illegal at times. Almost all effective post players have those types of thing in their repertoire.

And it's true for non post players that play a physical game too. Take Cotton for instance. When the Bears played WSU I was watching the Ruder / Cotton matchup pretty close. I wouldn't classify Cotton as dirty but he was doing a variety of things like hip checks, pushes, hand checks, putting his hand directly in Ruder's face that are technically fouls or even technical fouls. But it's smart basketball. Put any physical basketball player under a microscope and you are going to see things.

[Aargh]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

This is a myth that seems to exist mainly in the minds of IlSU fans. Baker probably takes more head shots than any other player in the league. If you want to call falling down after you take an elbow to the cheekbone a flop, then Baker is flopping.

He is known to point out to the refs when they have missed an elbow or arm shot above the shoulders. That's not flopping. That's in the rules and encouraged to cut down on head shots. Want Baker to stop "flopping". Stop whacking him in the head. Pretty simple.

[ISUBirds89]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

This is a myth that seems to exist mainly in the minds of IlSU fans. Baker probably takes more head shots than any other player in the league. If you want to call falling down after you take an elbow to the cheekbone a flop, then Baker is flopping.

He is known to point out to the refs when they have missed an elbow or arm shot above the shoulders. That's not flopping. That's in the rules and encouraged to cut down on head shots. Want Baker to stop "flopping". Stop whacking him in the head. Pretty simple.

Except all the monitor reviews that show no contact. I've seen in it a few times the past 2 years. Baker would have CTE if he legitimately took that many shots to the head.

[SHOXMVC]

Regarding dirty play: IMO if you look at most tough physical players closely you are going to see things that are technically illegal at times. Almost all effective post players have those types of thing in their repertoire.

And it's true for non post players that play a physical game too. Take Cotton for instance. When the Bears played WSU I was watching the Ruder / Cotton matchup pretty close. I wouldn't classify Cotton as dirty but he was doing a variety of things like hip checks, pushes, hand checks, putting his hand directly in Ruder's face that are technically fouls or even technical fouls. But it's smart basketball. Put any physical basketball player under a microscope and you are going to see things.

Cotton's defense of Ruder created quite a debate on Shockernet. I don't know why Cotton put his hand almost in Ruder's face on more than one occasion. He doesn't need to do that to defend as you know, and has never done that before. This conference has had some really good defenders over the years. The only dirty players that come to mind have worn Cardinal red.