Would you let Marty finish the season?

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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby UE-grad » February 9th, 2015, 5:54 pm

IndyTreeFan wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post much because I don't want to be accused of being a fair weather bandwagon poster. So, I just don't post much... :Bam: But I do enjoy reading. And I don't find WSU fans nearly as offensive as some people do... :buddies:

I have a question for Evansville fans - is the problem Marty, or the support of the University? I ask this because as you all know, Indiana State sucked for so long, and we blamed the coaches, and always thought the next one would be the cure. But it never was.

Come to find out, every coach since Bill Hodges had been shackled by ISU in terms of the staff he could have, how many scholarships he could give (yes, sometimes it was less than the NCAA limit), and most importantly, where he could recruit from. It's only been since Lansing has been here, and maybe the end of the McKenna regime, that we could recruit all 50 states. We finally got a President and AD that understood the marketing value of D-I athletics, and things changed in terms of support from the University. In light of this, looking back, I'm sure that all the coaches we had at ISU (except Ron Green) could have been successful, given the appropriate backing of the University.

So, and I'm no fan of Marty, is the problem really him, or is it a more systemic issue with the University administration? I mean, if you have $60 for your recruiting budget, good things are NOT going to happen.

I'm curious as to what the E'ville fans' take on this is.


While very few know for sure, it is not hard to fathom that the budget and salary at UE are at the lower end of the valley. I don't think this is the major issue - at least not in my opinion.

I'm ok with the current recruiting and talent that has been coming in, based on recent W-L results. More and bigger wins will only improve the quality. In recent recruiting classes have included all-state players from Indiana and Ohio as well as junior national team contributers. Transfers have come from Big Ten and Big East programs. Juco players have been highly regarded.

The issue is squarely on the sideline before and during the game. Bottom line is you have determine the best route for a win in each situation, with the players availible. Look at Geno in the second half Saturday. He made a drastic change to hold the ball and make one attempt to break down the defender. He shortened the game due his short bench and Marty let him do it.

With the exception of the three wins while Mislav was out (where he went big to start and everyone played extended minutes) he never forces mismatches, only stays the course.
He also has a habit of forgetting guys on the bench, how many times has someone played well in the first half only to sit the second (and the next 4 games - Stafford). The entire bench was in together in the last InSU game and pulled away, only to see token time in the next 3 games.

How many double digit first half leads has he turned into losses in his career?

The bottom line - adapt the game plan to the players, not force the players into the same game plan. Put them in a situation to succeed, not a bad plan and then say they didn't execute.
:huh:
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby pafan » February 9th, 2015, 8:25 pm

rlh04d wrote:1) What kind of salary could Evansville realistically offer a new coach?

Realistically? 300k? I can't see UE ever coming up with Geno Ford money.

IndyTreeFan wrote:I have a question for Evansville fans - is the problem Marty, or the support of the University? I ask this because as you all know, Indiana State sucked for so long, and we blamed the coaches, and always thought the next one would be the cure. But it never was.


I'm certain some things could be improved by increased support to all of Athletics. Two easy examples:

  1. UE travels by bus to most road games. I know I wouldn't be at my best 12 hours after getting off a 9 hour bus trip to Springfield or a 6 hour trip to Chicago. And I'm not 6'7".
  2. Marketing. The marketing budget for UE is enough to buy about 6 billboards from November through February and an occasional ad in the newspaper. I figure we're talking $40k. Which is more than in previous years, but still not much. Certainly much less than the Evansville IceMen (AA hockey) or Evansville Otters (independent baseball)

-----

Do I think that Marty Simmons a good coach? Not really. I do think he's done a respectable job of recruiting and has been a fine representative of UE. I think his system is fundamentally sound and think UE's players have matured well with him as coach. But it sure seems like teaching defense is beyond him. And God forbid the other team do something unexpected, like Bradley inserting #52 (sorry, forgot his name) on Saturday.

At this point, I would be happy with 11-7 and an appearance in the 4/5 game in StL. More embarrassing losses and the tolerance goes down a lot. But, in the end my opinion doesn't matter a whole lot because I'm not a gazillionaire.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby rlh04d » February 10th, 2015, 5:31 am

pafan wrote:
rlh04d wrote:1) What kind of salary could Evansville realistically offer a new coach?

Realistically? 300k? I can't see UE ever coming up with Geno Ford money.


Personally, I have a hard time seeing how Evansville fans can expect anything more than an occasional top half finish with 300k as the upper limit of the salary range. Coach Jans took $325k to start at a MAC school coming out of an assistant job.

That kind of salary limits you to lesser tier assistant coaches or coaches at bottom half MAC schools or lower.

Best case scenario, Evansville has to be perfect and make no mistakes with hires. Make a great hire, lose him in three years, make another great hire, lose him, make another great hire, etc. One slip up kills momentum and drops them back. And we all know how hard a single great hire is to make, let alone multiple ones in a row with a very low budget. That would take an incredible eye for talent as Ad.

I just don't see a scenario where Evansville fans can logically want more than they're getting. The problems are institutional more than coach related.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby uniftw » February 10th, 2015, 7:14 am

rlh04d wrote:
pafan wrote:
rlh04d wrote:1) What kind of salary could Evansville realistically offer a new coach?

Realistically? 300k? I can't see UE ever coming up with Geno Ford money.


Personally, I have a hard time seeing how Evansville fans can expect anything more than an occasional top half finish with 300k as the upper limit of the salary range. Coach Jans took $325k to start at a MAC school coming out of an assistant job.

That kind of salary limits you to lesser tier assistant coaches or coaches at bottom half MAC schools or lower.

Best case scenario, Evansville has to be perfect and make no mistakes with hires. Make a great hire, lose him in three years, make another great hire, lose him, make another great hire, etc. One slip up kills momentum and drops them back. And we all know how hard a single great hire is to make, let alone multiple ones in a row with a very low budget. That would take an incredible eye for talent as Ad.

I just don't see a scenario where Evansville fans can logically want more than they're getting. The problems are institutional more than coach related.

My thoughts as well.

Evansville just doesn't seem to have what it takes, as a university, to be anything more than a 4th-7th on a consistent basis with an occasional top 3 run.

The Ford Center is nice but beyond that is there much support across the board?
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby Tom Servo » February 10th, 2015, 11:06 am

What you guys are saying is true, the problem goes beyond the basketball coach.

There is a whole thread about this on our forum.

We're just going to have to get lucky like we did with Crews. That's really the bottom line. I wasn't even born when he was hired, but I know he was a hot commodity, he was the top assistant under Knight at IU. He came in and elevated the program immediately, and unfortunately everyone was spoiled by how successful he was for 15 years. 4 NCAAs, 2 NITs, and a team that was offensive minded and fun to watch every year. He did all that despite having devastating injuries multiple times to star players. I'm pretty sure if you take the average of his first 15 years of attendance it totals 9,338. Bascially Evansville averaged over 9,000 people a game from 1985 to 2000. Now we are lucky to get 4,000. That's enough to make any die hard Aces fan sick to their stomach.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby shockem » February 10th, 2015, 11:10 am

I was under the assumption that they just hired Marty so they could get his son. It was a package deal.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby E-Villan » February 10th, 2015, 11:13 am

rlh04d wrote:
pafan wrote:
rlh04d wrote:1) What kind of salary could Evansville realistically offer a new coach?

Realistically? 300k? I can't see UE ever coming up with Geno Ford money.


Personally, I have a hard time seeing how Evansville fans can expect anything more than an occasional top half finish with 300k as the upper limit of the salary range. Coach Jans took $325k to start at a MAC school coming out of an assistant job.

That kind of salary limits you to lesser tier assistant coaches or coaches at bottom half MAC schools or lower.

Best case scenario, Evansville has to be perfect and make no mistakes with hires. Make a great hire, lose him in three years, make another great hire, lose him, make another great hire, etc. One slip up kills momentum and drops them back. And we all know how hard a single great hire is to make, let alone multiple ones in a row with a very low budget. That would take an incredible eye for talent as Ad.

I just don't see a scenario where Evansville fans can logically want more than they're getting. The problems are institutional more than coach related.


I think it really comes down to what is the so-called booster group and administration is willing to offer. The $300K is probably realistic, but hopefully incentives such as wins, real postseason appearances, attendance boosts, etc can be built in. Outside of WSU right now, I really don't see anyone in the league head and shoulders above what we should be able to do financially. Bradley was, but the shortfalls from the Geno debacle will hang over them for some time. The key is getting our fanbase back. Just getting back to $9K alone would generate an additional $1.2mm in ticket sale revenue annually. In the mid 80's, we were able to hire the top assistant at a very high major, and retain him for 17 years. I can't confirm what Crews salary was during those years, but I am pretty sure it wasn't the bottom of the MCC or MVC. I would hope we could find that type of commitment and resource again if we do make such a move.

I agree, if we aren't going to up the ante, then we might as well settle with our happy alumn.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby BCPanther » February 10th, 2015, 11:48 am

UE isn't touching Marshall ($1.5 M+), Jacobson ($650k), Ford ($700k) money.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby Cdizzle » February 10th, 2015, 11:55 am

BCPanther wrote:UE isn't touching Marshall ($1.5 M+), Jacobson ($650k), Ford ($700k) money.

I think that's true, but I'm also not sure they have to. You start shelling out $400k+ and you've put yourself in a position to attract pretty good talent. Maybe not keep that talent, but winning also begets more budget.
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Re: Would you let Marty finish the season?

Postby E-Villan » February 10th, 2015, 12:43 pm

BCPanther wrote:UE isn't touching Marshall ($1.5 M+), Jacobson ($650k), Ford ($700k) money.


Forget Marshall, and Ford was a bust. Was Jacobson hired in at $650K, or did performance incentives and tenure bring him up to that? There is no question he is worth it, I am just questioning whether UNI started there. I would hope UE would pay any coach that kind of salary with the results Jacobson has delivered. I think if UE put 5 years together as UNI has, the financial resources would certainly be there to match what UNI can do.

With that said, I hope we wouldn't start there with an unproven coach though. Bradley and SIU paid dearly for making such moves.
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