All-MVC Picks

[Wufan]

Last comment on this topic -

For those who believe that all conference type honors are based primarily on a team's results/performance, I have exhibit B for an honor outside of POY...

TWO Indy St. players on a team that quit and finished 8-10 were put on the 2nd team all conference. Ditto for Montel James at Loyola.

These are individual stat based honors with slight recognition to a team's finish in the standings. FVV happened to be POY on a team that was great and dominated the league, however those are all individual awards that can be won by any player who has an outstanding individual year statistically.

Exactly. And FVV was very deserving of the award due to the individual season he had this year.

Back in 1996-97 UNI finished the season 16-12. They were 4th in the league, but Jason Daisy won the POY. I think there are probably other ones even more recent where a player was not on a top team, but was the POY. I think that gets lost that they don't have to be on the best team, but it is much easier when you are on the best team. No doubt FVV deserved it this year for his individual performance, and not because WSU won the league by 4 games.

I would like to tag a few WSU posters to this....especially MVCFan who has disappeared since his "logic" has become very nonsensical.

Do you know what a last comment is?

[Wufan]

Last comment on this topic -

For those who believe that all conference type honors are based primarily on a team's results/performance, I have exhibit B for an honor outside of POY...

TWO Indy St. players on a team that quit and finished 8-10 were put on the 2nd team all conference. Ditto for Montel James at Loyola.

These are individual stat based honors with slight recognition to a team's finish in the standings. FVV happened to be POY on a team that was great and dominated the league, however those are all individual awards that can be won by any player who has an outstanding individual year statistically.

Exactly. And FVV was very deserving of the award due to the individual season he had this year.

Back in 1996-97 UNI finished the season 16-12. They were 4th in the league, but Jason Daisy won the POY. I think there are probably other ones even more recent where a player was not on a top team, but was the POY. I think that gets lost that they don't have to be on the best team, but it is much easier when you are on the best team. No doubt FVV deserved it this year for his individual performance, and not because WSU won the league by 4 games.

I'm going to go ahead and do the research for you. Since 2002 the POY has been on the team that won the conference every year except 2015 and 2012. WSU won the conference both years with Tuttle winning in 15 and McDermott winning in 2012. Thirteen out of fifteen years.

[Redbirdgrad]

I wonder if all Valley coaches were asked to pick one player, based on what they "saw" this year, to build a team around, who would it be? Mock...doubt it; Baker...probably not; Fred...ding, ding, ding.

Well since we're not asking that question, we'll never know. Don't change the question to support your argument. Common fallacy.

But if you want to go down that road, and we had a snake draft just me and you... you got 1st pick of FVV, and I got 2nd pick of Mock, and then 3rd pick.... I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day.

You just chastised me for asking a question you don't seem to think is relevant...then you answer it. Then you Billy Bad Ass it by saying "I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day."

I love keyboard cowards.

Correct, I pointed out your logical fallacy with the actual question at hand.

Then I proceeded to answer the next question you raised even though it differed from the original. Due to Mocks dominance over every other player at his position this year, I'd take him and the #2 PG in the Valley over FVV and any other player you pick.

No keyboard coward here son. We can have the same conversation at any bar in America you'd like.

[AndShock]

I wonder if all Valley coaches were asked to pick one player, based on what they "saw" this year, to build a team around, who would it be? Mock...doubt it; Baker...probably not; Fred...ding, ding, ding.

Well since we're not asking that question, we'll never know. Don't change the question to support your argument. Common fallacy.

But if you want to go down that road, and we had a snake draft just me and you... you got 1st pick of FVV, and I got 2nd pick of Mock, and then 3rd pick.... I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day.

I would rather have Mock and a replacement level PG like Washpun or Lee than FVV and a replacement level big like Koch or Bola.

What if you had Mock and added another MVC first teamer....like let's say a DJ Balentine for example. I bet that team could go 18-0.

[SHOXMVC]

Birdgrad, you wouldn't know what logic was if it was in the rockgut you drink at the bars. Apparently you missed the class on comprehension in Normal. Now go back to your assigned corner at the bar Skippy.

[Redbirdgrad]

Birdgrad, you wouldn't know what logic was if it was in the rockgut you drink at the bars. Apparently you missed the class on comprehension in Normal. Now go back to your assigned corner at the bar Skippy.

This is the reaction of any individual on the losing side of an argument. Don't worry, it's "normal".

My comprehension is just fine, thank you. Your ability to see anything outside that lovely city of Wichita? Not so much...

But keep coming back with the insults instead of anything resembling a solid argument... Makes for much better reading....

[SHOXMVC]

I wonder if all Valley coaches were asked to pick one player, based on what they "saw" this year, to build a team around, who would it be? Mock...doubt it; Baker...probably not; Fred...ding, ding, ding.

Well since we're not asking that question, we'll never know. Don't change the question to support your argument. Common fallacy.

But if you want to go down that road, and we had a snake draft just me and you... you got 1st pick of FVV, and I got 2nd pick of Mock, and then 3rd pick.... I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day.

This is apparently what started it. The thread is about MVC individual awards. My genuine goal was to get feedback on POY. I CHOSE to put it in the context I did. Who are you to decide how I present this topic to a conference forum. There was nothing inflamitory that you should have gotten butt hurt about in my presentation. My take was Fred would be the number one player chosen by the leagues coaches. Does it surprise you I chose him? You said "we're not asking that question." Who the hell is we? I asked the question. Then you said "Don't change the question to support your argument." Who the hell are you to decide what I want to ask the members of this fan board? Then you puff out your chest and said "I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day." Well lah dee dah dee dah there Skippy. I guess you told me. Thus your total failure at reading, comprehension and communication. I just gave you the facts.

[mvcfan]

UN, Evansville and ISUR have a bad argument. They can't even get close in the league , can't stand to be DOMINATED by four games (and 20 pointes per game) so they resort to an argument that WSU has a better team but not they don't have individual players who can play with their players.

The same stance for COY. Gregg Marshall's teams dominates the league but he isn't as good a coach. This is all about JEALOUSY in a league who isn't even in the same conversation. The National media knows that the MVC is THE SHOCKERS vs. the rest of the league.

I don't like putting the whole league into this conversation, because there are some fair posters. However, there are not very many so it is what it is. WSU vs. the MVC. It's also a contrast regarding how the national media see this conference. It's really a sad commentary on a conference who used to be Top 6-7 and now is barely in the Top 15.

[Redbirdgrad]

I guess one school of thought is that if you're losing an argument you shout louder and with more capital letters than the other person? Let's break this down.

This is apparently what started it. The thread is about MVC individual awards.

You're right! Stop trying to derail it!

My genuine goal was to get feedback on POY.

Really? Then why ask a question with has nothing to do with Player of the Year? Who would you start a team with has very little to do with Player of the Year. Let's try this in football. If you were starting to build a team, right now, who would you pick? Probably a young quarterback, or stud running back. Would the necessarily have been the player of the year the previous season due to being the first person you'd pick to start your team? Of course not. Your original "ding ding ding" argument is a logical fallacy entitled "argument from ignorance"... look it up.

I CHOSE to put it in the context I did.

Yes, this is why I replied to you directly. As did other people.

Who are you to decide how I present this topic to a conference forum. There was nothing inflamitory that you should have gotten butt hurt about in my presentation.

butt hurt? really? let's handle this with a little class and have a mature conversation. it's a good one I'm enjoying, don't ruin it by going there.

My take was Fred would be the number one player chosen by the leagues coaches.

Correct, and I was pointing out the "argument from ignorance" fallacy. Most would choose him for POY, and most did, and he's to be congratulated for the award.

Does it surprise you I chose him?

No, it doesn't surprise me that an oversensitive Shocker fan chose FVV to start a team with. Doesn't surprise me at all.

You said "we're not asking that question." Who the hell is we? I asked the question.

We would be every other individual who is actually discussing the All-MVC Picks, and POY on this thread, outside of you who decided to bring in a different question which has nothing to do with the current conversation to support your boy. There's no problem with FVV being your pick for POY from anyone, most everyone agrees with you, we were just telling you that your choice of arguments in support of your decision has little context with the discussion.

Then you said "Don't change the question to support your argument." Who the hell are you to decide what I want to ask the members of this fan board?

If you would have phrased it as an actual question or discussion point, this would have been a fantastic topic to debate. However you posed the question, and then decided to answer it yourself by dismissing others without said debate. This was a support of your point, not an actual question. Don't try and play it off as such.

Then you puff out your chest and said "I bet I would field a team to beat yours at the end of the day." Well lah dee dah dee dah there Skippy. I guess you told me.

Well, yes, actually I did. I told you who I'd select 1st overall, and that I believe that team would beat yours, even though you thought your obvious 1st selection was better. In a Value Based Draft, FVV would definitely not be the 1st selected this year. But again, this is up for debate and I'd love to have one maybe on another thread. But this has nothing to do with POY which is why I originally called it out. You went down this road, I just decided to follow you down it.

Thus your total failure at reading, comprehension and communication.

I'll just leave this one alone. (ad hominem...)

I just gave you the facts.

Actually, no. What you gave me were your opinions. We can't continue this discussion until you know the difference.

[BuBrave2006]

Well since we're not asking that question, we'll never know. Don't change the question to support your argument. Common fallacy.

But if you want to go down that road, and we had a snake draft just me and you... you got 1st pick of FVV, and I got 2nd pick of Mock, and then 3rd pick.... I bet I could field a team to beat yours at the end of the day.

I would rather have Mock and a replacement level PG like Washpun or Lee than FVV and a replacement level big like Koch or Bola.

What if you had Mock and added another MVC first teamer....like let's say a DJ Balentine for example. I bet that team could go 18-0.

I'm not saying Mock is better than FVV, I'm not saying that the Point Guard position isn't important. What i AM saying is that a good big is significantly more difficult to find than a good PG, especially at the valley level. The PG position is much much deeper. If you want to compare the rest of the lineups between Wichita and Evansville than sure, Wichita is better.

But if Wichita and Evansville traded Zach Brown, Ron Baker and Evan Wessel for Jaylon Brown, Blake Simmons, and Adam Wing, I would take Evansville's lineup every time. I would love to see Fred win playing 38 minutes a game with Evansville's supporting cast.