Who wins in St. Louis

[Stickboy46]

Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.

Lee/Shamet really is tough. I'm biased and take Shamet's overall game
Wills/Frankamp would have been tougher a few weeks back, but Frankamp seems to have turned the corner and taken the next step. I'm going with CF
McIntosh/Brown...I love Brown and his D is much better, but McIntosh brings so much else he gets the nod.
Hawkins/McDuffie is a good matchup that I'm sure could go either way, but I'm giving the nod to Duff. I think he brings a little more versatility all around.
Fayne/Morris I'm taking Morris and not thinking twice about it.

Again, I'm biased but that's my take. I have no problem with others taking Lee over Shamet or Hawkins over Duff. Maybe I'm underselling Wills.

Hard to disagree right now. Ever since Morris/Frankamp picked it up after your loss to ISUr, you guys have been unbelievably good.

Only thing a few things I would say...Wills is a FAR SUPERIOR defender than Frankamp. The opposite can be said about the offensive end. I would say they are a wash because of this.

Hawkins and McDuffie are very close.
Ditto for Lee and Shamet (although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Frankamp is probably the most underrated defender in this league IMO. People peg him as a defensive liability, when in reality, he's really good.

[BirdsEyeView]

Lee/Shamet really is tough. I'm biased and take Shamet's overall game
Wills/Frankamp would have been tougher a few weeks back, but Frankamp seems to have turned the corner and taken the next step. I'm going with CF
McIntosh/Brown...I love Brown and his D is much better, but McIntosh brings so much else he gets the nod.
Hawkins/McDuffie is a good matchup that I'm sure could go either way, but I'm giving the nod to Duff. I think he brings a little more versatility all around.
Fayne/Morris I'm taking Morris and not thinking twice about it.

Again, I'm biased but that's my take. I have no problem with others taking Lee over Shamet or Hawkins over Duff. Maybe I'm underselling Wills.

Hard to disagree right now. Ever since Morris/Frankamp picked it up after your loss to ISUr, you guys have been unbelievably good.

Only thing a few things I would say...Wills is a FAR SUPERIOR defender than Frankamp. The opposite can be said about the offensive end. I would say they are a wash because of this.

Hawkins and McDuffie are very close.
Ditto for Lee and Shamet (although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Frankamp is probably the most underrated defender in this league IMO. People peg him as a defensive liability, when in reality, he's really good.

Interesting. Who is he guarding on the defensive end? 2nd attacking option? 3rd? 4th? 5th?

I know we usually stick Wills on the best perimeter player on the opposition each game.

[Cdizzle]

(although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Not disputing this, just curious why you feel this way?

Here is an example (from the Pantagraph article after last night's win):

"We had to keep our composure," said Hawkins of trailing by eight with 14 minutes left. "Paris (Lee) gave us a little speech and told us we weren't playing like ourselves. I said a couple words. We just had to keep our head.


It seems every game Lee is encouraging, motivating, willing the team along....especially when we struggle (which has been often lately).

Alright. Leadership is such a subjective measurement. One could just as easily argue that Shamet is doing a better job of leading by keeping his team from trailing by 8 in the 2nd half.

I'm just not sure why we keep defaulting advantages to Lee where I'm not so sure they exist.

[BirdsEyeView]

Here is an example (from the Pantagraph article after last night's win):

"We had to keep our composure," said Hawkins of trailing by eight with 14 minutes left. "Paris (Lee) gave us a little speech and told us we weren't playing like ourselves. I said a couple words. We just had to keep our head.


It seems every game Lee is encouraging, motivating, willing the team along....especially when we struggle (which has been often lately).

Alright. Leadership is such a subjective measurement. One could just as easily argue that Shamet is doing a better job of leading by keeping his team from trailing by 8 in the 2nd half.

I'm just not sure why we keep defaulting advantages to Lee where I'm not so sure they exist.

Very true.

[Cdizzle]

Hard to disagree right now. Ever since Morris/Frankamp picked it up after your loss to ISUr, you guys have been unbelievably good.

Only thing a few things I would say...Wills is a FAR SUPERIOR defender than Frankamp. The opposite can be said about the offensive end. I would say they are a wash because of this.

Hawkins and McDuffie are very close.
Ditto for Lee and Shamet (although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Frankamp is probably the most underrated defender in this league IMO. People peg him as a defensive liability, when in reality, he's really good.

Interesting. Who is he guarding on the defensive end? 2nd attacking option? 3rd? 4th? 5th?

I know we usually stick Wills on the best perimeter player on the opposition each game.

Difficult to say most of the time. Brown is usually the primary defender on the opposing team's best 1, 2, or 3 guard. Pretty much size/matchup based after that. I'm not ready to anoint Frankamp as a great defender, but his pre-WSU reputation is no longer valid. He's certainly a competent defender. I would still give Wills the clear edge on defense, but there is a chasm between the offense Frankamp has found the last 15 games or so, and Wills.

Also, your comment about using Wills on the oppositions best guard each game doesn't help a lot of the "Lee is the best defender in the midwest" arguments that are pretty popular in certain circles right now.

[Cdizzle]

Here is an example (from the Pantagraph article after last night's win):

"We had to keep our composure," said Hawkins of trailing by eight with 14 minutes left. "Paris (Lee) gave us a little speech and told us we weren't playing like ourselves. I said a couple words. We just had to keep our head.


It seems every game Lee is encouraging, motivating, willing the team along....especially when we struggle (which has been often lately).

Alright. Leadership is such a subjective measurement. One could just as easily argue that Shamet is doing a better job of leading by keeping his team from trailing by 8 in the 2nd half.

I'm just not sure why we keep defaulting advantages to Lee where I'm not so sure they exist.

Very true.

I don't want to under-sell Lee. ISUr has found consistency this season that I wasn't sure this group of players was ever going to be capable of finding, and that credit belongs to someone or some group of someones. 14-1 doesn't happen by accident, for either ISU or WSU.

[BirdsEyeView]

Also, your comment about using Wills on the oppositions best guard each game doesn't help a lot of the "Lee is the best defender in the midwest" arguments that are pretty popular in certain circles right now.

He is good, but has limitations with his size that Wills does not. He gets the pub for being the all-time steals leader, etc. They are a very good dynamic duo and complement each other great against the oppositions best guards/wings.

Correct me if I'm wrong Redbird fans, but I believe Wills guards Jaylon Brown, Brenton Scott, Jeremy Morgan and Milton Doyle to name a few.

[Cdizzle]

Also, your comment about using Wills on the oppositions best guard each game doesn't help a lot of the "Lee is the best defender in the midwest" arguments that are pretty popular in certain circles right now.

He is good, but has limitations with his size that Wills does not. He gets the pub for being the all-time steals leader, etc. They are a very good dynamic duo and complement each other great against the oppositions best guards/wings.

Correct me if I'm wrong Redbird fans, but I believe Wills guards Jaylon Brown, Brenton Scott, Jeremy Morgan and Milton Doyle to name a few.

That has been my impression in the games I've watched. WSU's Brown is used in similar fashion. The extra size allows for a lot of versatility.

[Stickboy46]

Hard to disagree right now. Ever since Morris/Frankamp picked it up after your loss to ISUr, you guys have been unbelievably good.

Only thing a few things I would say...Wills is a FAR SUPERIOR defender than Frankamp. The opposite can be said about the offensive end. I would say they are a wash because of this.

Hawkins and McDuffie are very close.
Ditto for Lee and Shamet (although leadership wise....edge to Lee)

Frankamp is probably the most underrated defender in this league IMO. People peg him as a defensive liability, when in reality, he's really good.

Interesting. Who is he guarding on the defensive end? 2nd attacking option? 3rd? 4th? 5th?

I know we usually stick Wills on the best perimeter player on the opposition each game.

My comment wasn't to discredit WIlls at all. I just wanted to point out that people don't give Frankamp enough credit for his defense. He's not a liability at all. He's not our best defender (Brown). Though comparing him to someone that is in the conversation for DPOY probably isn't fair either.

He's made huge strides this year. He actually has a positive Steals to Turnover Ratio.. 23 to 18. (only one on the team to do that). Not a defensive stat but his 4.2 Assist to TO ratio is pretty dang impressive too.

[BirdsEyeView]

My comment wasn't to discredit WIlls at all. I just wanted to point out that people don't give Frankamp enough credit for his defense. He's not a liability at all. He's not our best defender (Brown). Though comparing him to someone that is in the conversation for DPOY probably isn't fair either.

He's made huge strides this year. He actually has a positive Steals to Turnover Ratio.. 23 to 18. (only one on the team to do that). Not a defensive stat but his 4.2 Assist to TO ratio is pretty dang impressive too.

I never took it as a discredit. I was just asking a simple question. For example, I could look good guarding a 5th option averaging under 3 points a game too (well maybe not). That was why I was asking.