Who wins in St. Louis

[Aargh]

IMHO, Lee is the best PG in the league. I also think comparing Shamet to him is legitimate.

Think about this just a moment. Shamet is a Freshman. Lee is a Senior. Shamet was converted to PG in mid-season. Shamet is leading the league in A/TO at 3.1. Lee's handles aren't quite as steady - he's at 1.8.

3.1 is up in VanVleet territory. Shamet shoots better than Baker or VanVleet. Frankamp is now shooting better than Baker or VanVleet. Baker and VanVleet were better defenders.

The Valley has a few years of WSU having some pretty good guards - again. Reaves is leading the league in 3FG%. Then there's C.J. Keyser, who was injured all summer and early fall, but he's looking like a slightly larger version of Tekele Cotton, but shoots it better.

[SubGod22]

Admittedly, Frankamp usually guards the other team's shortest, slowest, perimeter player, but he's gone from a horrible defensive player (think Blake Ahearn) to a pretty good defensive player. He has very active hands and feet and is pretty good at help defense. Marshall has said recently that he thinks Conner's time at KU set him back developmentally. Frankamp came to WSU a shell of his high school self. Outside of Nurger, he's probably our most improved player.

I never thought Conner would buy in defensively, which would prevent him from ever being more than a little used role player. But the kid has become a good defender. I thought average at best was his ceiling. Even in HS, they hid him defensively and he'd guard the weakest perimeter player. And that was on a team with very little talent outside of Conner. There was a game earlier this year, and I don't remember which game it was, but Conner actually got assigned to the top guard and did quite well. This was before we started putting Brown and Duff on the PG. He's really become a pretty complete player. I'm not saying his D is all conference worthy, but it's not a weakness either.

I do remember Marshall talking about his time at KU set him back. It appears to be pretty obvious that he wasn't wrong. I'm not saying Self sucks as a coach, but whatever he was doing with Conner was apparently not good.

I wanted Conner to go to Creighton so he could just jack up shots and not worry about defense, but I'm glad that we have him at this point. Confident Conner is a dangerous weapon for the Shox.

I believe that Marshall said that Self wanted Conner to be a spot up shooter. Someone that just sets at the arch and waits for a pass. Conner is way better with his shot off the dribble it seems.

He absolutely shoots better off the dribble. That was another thing that concerned me. In HS, North wanted others to touch the ball as little as possible. My concern there was that Conner could create for himself and get his shot off but wouldn't be able to contribute by creating for others. Now, he doesn't necessarily do a lot of creating for others and I do think I was mostly correct about him not being a primary PG and would be better off ball. I'm glad we made that switch with he and Landry.

Conner is finding a way to be aggressive and get his shot without harming the team. I'm perfectly happy to admit I was mostly wrong about him and what he would bring to the program. He's exceeded my most optimistic expectations.

[Wufan]

Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.

After 15 games, is there much argument that the 1st All Valley team should come from this group of 10?

Morgan and Doyle make good arguments. Johnson as well. Three games left and a lot of room for movement. I think the only pairing above that isn't a wash is McIntosh and Brown, but since the first time the Redbirds and Shockers played, its pretty much a complete wash.

McDuffie 10.5 and 7.5
Shamet 11.5 and 4.5 assists
Morris 12 and 7.5
Frankamp 12.5 and 3 assists
Brown 6 and 2

Lee 13.5 and 4.5 assists
Hawkins 15 and 7
McIntosh 7.5 and 4
Fayne 10.5 and 6.5
Wills 5.5 and 1.5 assists

[municup14]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.
Illinois St. has talent,great leader in Lee,but I don't believe the coach is that good.
N Iowa has a couple of good players,not very good gaurd play,but has the best coach.
Those are my three teams who I believe can win.

[Wufan]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.
Illinois St. has talent,great leader in Lee,but I don't believe the coach is that good.
N Iowa has a couple of good players,not very good gaurd play,but has the best coach.
Those are my three teams who I believe can win.

No leadership in Wichita? Hmmm. Best coach in Cedar Falls? Hmmm.

[shockem]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.

Maybe at the beginning of the year, even midway through. Landry Shamet is our clear leader at point guard now, it's just taken some time to evolve.

[hot nuts]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.
Illinois St. has talent,great leader in Lee,but I don't believe the coach is that good.
N Iowa has a couple of good players,not very good gaurd play,but has the best coach.
Those are my three teams who I believe can win.

Little advice, newb...don't EVER question anything about the Shockers because you will always be wrong. Always.

[Redbirds4Life]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.
Illinois St. has talent,great leader in Lee,but I don't believe the coach is that good.
N Iowa has a couple of good players,not very good gaurd play,but has the best coach.
Those are my three teams who I believe can win.

Little advice, newb...don't EVER question anything about the Shockers because you will always be wrong. Always.

^Understatement

As for what you said

Wichita State - I think you are not giving Shamet enough credit for leadership.

Illinois State - I think you nailed it on the head, I am probably on an island for Redbird fans with this one, but I think the jury is out on Muller still.

UNI - Another island I am on, but I fear them in St. Louis as much as I fear Wichita State...strictly due to the coaching of Jacobson. Not because he is better than Marshall, cus I think its a toss up, but Jacobson has been a thorn in ISU's side more than Marshall has. ISU has seemed to fair pretty well against Wichita State over the years, but not so much against Northern Iowa.

[Redbirds4Life]

Three weeks ago I would have agreed that ISUr had the best starting 5. I'm not so sure now:

1 Lee vs Shamet
2 Wills vs Frankamp
3 McIntosh vs Brown
4 Hawkins vs McDuffie
5 Fayne vs Morris

Tougher call than it used to be.

After 15 games, is there much argument that the 1st All Valley team should come from this group of 10?

Morgan and Doyle make good arguments. Johnson as well. Three games left and a lot of room for movement. I think the only pairing above that isn't a wash is McIntosh and Brown, but since the first time the Redbirds and Shockers played, its pretty much a complete wash.

McDuffie 10.5 and 7.5
Shamet 11.5 and 4.5 assists
Morris 12 and 7.5
Frankamp 12.5 and 3 assists
Brown 6 and 2

Lee 13.5 and 4.5 assists
Hawkins 15 and 7
McIntosh 7.5 and 4
Fayne 10.5 and 6.5
Wills 5.5 and 1.5 assists

McIntosh averages 13.2ppg in Valley play

[Horn28Clem30]

I believe it will boil down to three teams.Wichita has talent,a good coach,but
No leadership at the point.
Illinois St. has talent,great leader in Lee,but I don't believe the coach is that good.
N Iowa has a couple of good players,not very good gaurd play,but has the best coach.
Those are my three teams who I believe can win.

Has the best coach!? Anything you now say is completely going to be ignored after that statement.