Sounds like Wichita St to the AAC... Who gets an Invite?

[squirrel]

Elgin better do something and get it right, or the Valley might be in a death spiral.

NDSU and SDSU probably have the budget to move to the MAC. Then the MAC might want to gauge the interest of UNI and IlSU joining them as well.

Then Simmons, Lusk, Moser, and Hinson could battle it out every year to make the NCAA tourney.

Death spiral.....really? Come on now.

I love this sky is falling stuff. If the "core" teams in the MVC - Bradley, ISU, SIU and Missouri State get better then great. If they don't, it's only on them. That's not up to Doug Elgin or anyone in the MVC office. The teams themselves need to get better.

And without Wichita the MVC is still better than half the D1 leagues out there. Let's not overdo it.

The sky has the potential to be falling from a non-football standpoint. From a football standpoint, there's nothing to worry about.

The issue is that if the Dakotas are brought in as a block, or other prospective football members to replace the Shox, if an Evansville leaves, there's an imbalance between the football members and Drake, Loyola and Bradley. And there's really no reason to give them a voice in anything.

So if you're a fan of one of those schools, one should be wary about their long-term standing in the league. The league itself will be fine. But that doesn't mean much for the non-football members in the bigger picture.

[uniftw]

Elgin better do something and get it right, or the Valley might be in a death spiral.

NDSU and SDSU probably have the budget to move to the MAC. Then the MAC might want to gauge the interest of UNI and IlSU joining them as well.

Then Simmons, Lusk, Moser, and Hinson could battle it out every year to make the NCAA tourney.

Death spiral.....really? Come on now.

I love this sky is falling stuff. If the "core" teams in the MVC - Bradley, ISU, SIU and Missouri State get better then great. If they don't, it's only on them. That's not up to Doug Elgin or anyone in the MVC office. The teams themselves need to get better.

And without Wichita the MVC is still better than half the D1 leagues out there. Let's not overdo it.

The sky has the potential to be falling from a non-football standpoint. From a football standpoint, there's nothing to worry about.

The issue is that if the Dakotas are brought in as a block, or other prospective football members to replace the Shox, if an Evansville leaves, there's an imbalance between the football members and Drake, Loyola and Bradley. And there's really no reason to give them a voice in anything.

So if you're a fan of one of those schools, one should be wary about their long-term standing in the league. The league itself will be fine. But that doesn't mean much for the non-football members in the bigger picture.

Should those schools be given a voice that outweights football schools like UNI, SIU and ISUr? Let's not forget that ISUb is a "core member". They are a football school. Earlier someone listed core members and it was almost exclusively football schools. Why should private non-football schools have more say if that's the case? Also, rofl at UNI not being a core member at this point.

It's not as though they've really done a ton to make the conference better the last few decades. They have something like 3 combined NCAA trips over the last 3 decades.

What they (BU and DU) have done is fought so hard against public schools, SOS mandates, etc... that would drive the conference forward that we are heading where we are heading.

Since the turn of the century those three are a combined 725-881 (45%).

[All-MVC Fan]

If fans of the respective MVC schools are any sort of a measuring stick, it's easy to see why the league has no unified vision for the future...

[TheAsianSensation]

I think the nuclear scenario for the league is some combination of IlSU, UNI, and MSU escaping for FBS and the Fun Belt/MAC. For argument's sake, let's say all 3 happen.

You have 6 basketball schools left trying to add more basketball schools.
You have 8 football schools left trying to add more football schools....and 4 are the Dakotas, and 2 are Youngstown/WIU who have no stake in basketball.

All of a sudden, you have a clusterbleep in trying to add people. Basketball schools will want to add several quality basketball teams, who outside of the Dakotas and maybe Murray St, don't have football. Football schools will probably want to add at least 1 (probably 2, I'm guessing) quality football teams, but those football teams won't come unless they get to park their basketball here as well.

I'd actually wonder at that point if the Summit would consider sponsoring football, inviting SIU and InSU as one-sport members, and we'd get to kill the MVCF.

Because the other scenario would be the Dakotas pulling weight to get all 4 programs into the MVC to save the football end....and because of the collapsing Summit, we'd have to take WIU as well. (remember in this scenario the Horizon loses a basketball member to us, and some combo of IUPUI/IPFW is sitting there for them as well)

Make no mistake....I think all the Dakotas seem to be football-first schools. (NDak is probably hockey-first, but everyone is football > basketball).

That would leave, in theory:

MVC basketball west:
North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Drake
Western Illinois

MVC basketball east:
Evansville
Indiana St
Southern Illinois
Bradley
Loyola
Valparaiso (or insert your other favorite expansion candidate here)

MVC football:
North Dakota
North Dakota St
South Dakota
South Dakota St
Indiana St
Southern Illinois
Western Illinois
Youngstown St

And maybe even the Dakotas are successful in dragging Omaha with them in exchange for an eastern expansion basketball candidate.

Now, this is the nuclear scenario. Worst-case. But this is a plausible endgame if football is allowed to drive the bus. This is why I'm kinda hesitant on the XDSUs. I'd rather not give them a say in basketball affairs at all, because the domino effect could drag the other two Dakotas here and cause a chain reaction mess.

[tribecalledquest]

Elgin better do something and get it right, or the Valley might be in a death spiral.

NDSU and SDSU probably have the budget to move to the MAC. Then the MAC might want to gauge the interest of UNI and IlSU joining them as well.

Then Simmons, Lusk, Moser, and Hinson could battle it out every year to make the NCAA tourney.

Death spiral.....really? Come on now.

I love this sky is falling stuff. If the "core" teams in the MVC - Bradley, ISU, SIU and Missouri State get better then great. If they don't, it's only on them. That's not up to Doug Elgin or anyone in the MVC office. The teams themselves need to get better.

And without Wichita the MVC is still better than half the D1 leagues out there. Let's not overdo it.

That's the core of the MVC? Really?

How?
Why?

Indiana State? Sure, if this is 1979 they are a core member

SIU? Sure, it's better for the conference if they are good. Weber made them good from "meh". Lowery destroyed it. Even before Weber they were "meh". I suppose they had 3 good years with Herrin. They've shown no ability to maintain success.

Bradley? They have 5 NCAA tournaments since 1955. 1 since Tulsa left the league. At this point, kids on our basketball programs weren't born when Tulsa left the league.

MSU? They dominated the MidCon in the late 80s. No NCAA bids since 1998. Their only other bid since joining the MVC was 1992). They claim to fame is being left out with a high RPI.

That's the core? Really?

wow.

Well...I should have meant schools underachieving. UNI has already done its work. That is why I didn't include them.

[squirrel]

Should those schools be given a voice that outweights football schools like UNI, SIU and ISUr? Let's not forget that ISUb is a "core member". They are a football school. Earlier someone listed core members and it was almost exclusively football schools. Why should private non-football schools have more say if that's the case? Also, rofl at UNI not being a core member at this point.

Who said anything about "more" of a voice? Right now there is a balance among members that has generally worked. My only point is that equilibrium is in jeopardy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing for the football members. I'm just saying that means their votes as a block are marginalized.

Tribe is indicating that there is no reason for fans of those schools to be concerned. I'm pointing out the long-term reason why there is plenty of reason.

As you say, this wouldn't be an issue if Bradley, for instance, was actually pulling its weight.

While Drake doesn't pull its weight in MBB, it does in other sports.

[tribecalledquest]

If fans of the respective MVC schools are any sort of a measuring stick, it's easy to see why the league has no unified vision for the future...

What would be a "unified vision for the future"? And the league is a group of schools all looking at their own future independent of the other nine, ten, eleven, etc.

The MVC office doesn't make the decision on expansion/additions. The University President's vote on that and vote on what to do.

[MidWestMidMajor]

Tom Shatel is the "dean of sports reporters" in the Omaha area. He is well connected. He says today that both the MVC and the Horizon League are taking a look at UNOmaha (the Horizon League, what?). He says that the Horizon has their eyes on Univ of Denver as well in the creation of a midwest "cities" league.

http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-w ... ac62b.html

I follow UNO hockey closely, but I am no insider. I think UNO values the relationships with the Dakota schools that go back to the 1970s. I think they enjoy associating with flagship type state schools. The Dakotas are a fairly close drive away up I-29. Hockey drives the bus at the UNO athletic department and now that the North Dakota is joining the Summit, I think that strengthens UNO's bond with the Summit.

But UNO also views itself as a metropolitan university. That is its identity. So it might value associating with UI-Chicago and UW-Milwaukee, UW-Green Bay, NKU, Cleveland State, Oakland, etc. UNO is in an academic coalition of metropolitan universities with most of those schools and considers Cleveland and Oakland as institutional peers. Denver is also a hockey rival of UNO. If Denver joined the Horizon, might that make things more appealing for UNO....?

But right now, money is a problem at UNO and the current chancellor is retiring. It's hard to imagine any big changes at this time.

So why post this on a MVC expansion thread?
Because if the MVC has any interest in Denver or UNO, apparently so does the Horizon.

[uniftw]

Should those schools be given a voice that outweights football schools like UNI, SIU and ISUr? Let's not forget that ISUb is a "core member". They are a football school. Earlier someone listed core members and it was almost exclusively football schools. Why should private non-football schools have more say if that's the case? Also, rofl at UNI not being a core member at this point.

Who said anything about "more" of a voice? Right now there is a balance among members that has generally worked. My only point is that equilibrium is in jeopardy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing for the football members. I'm just saying that means their votes as a block are marginalized.

Tribe is indicating that there is no reason for fans of those schools to be concerned. I'm pointing out the long-term reason why there is plenty of reason.

As you say, this wouldn't be an issue if Bradley, for instance, was actually pulling its weight.

While Drake doesn't pull its weight in MBB, it does in other sports.

It wouldn't be, but certain schools aren't pulling - haven't been/never have pulled their weight.

Let's be real, it doesn't matter what weight Drake pulls in womens basketball, or tennis, or soccer, or any other sport. What drives conferences is football and mens basketball. From that side of it Drake is a complete failure. It doesn't want to be a football school, but they still carry a football program. It doesn't properly fund the football program.

The talk about a unified vision is key. Schools like UNI, ISUr, SIU, MSU don't give a damn if it's a public or private school. Don't care if it's football or non football. They want schools to get better. They want to add better programs.

It's clear that schools like Drake, UE, (likely Loyola) and Bradley are more focused on making sure it's a private non-football school than a school that's going to drive the conference forward. It's how we ended up with f-ing Loyola.

[nafstrops]

This talk about football driving the bus is hilarious. We are talking about FCS football here, FCS. The MVC plays D1 basketball. These are two different levels. FCS football should not even be allowed in the bus.