UIC to MVC Gaining Traction

[Chuck A]

Not slighting St Thomas, but private schools are the ones getting hit the worst with enrollment losses. I don’t see how adding another low enrollment private is going to help.

Honestly I don’t understand the logic of adding a market with the idea of it helping enrollment. If you add UIC, add them because they are willing to do what it takes to be a winning program. Because that’s the only way you gain traction in a market is by winning. If Drake (for example) thinks there are students to be had in Dallas or Chicago, then perhaps they advertise there or do some outreach. That’s more effective than adding a school that no one in that market cares about.

UIC has some history, and if they are willing to put the money in to do so, I think they will fit in well. If St Thomas is being looked at, it should be because of what they bring competition wise.

You don't understand the logic because you're looking at it from a fan's perspective. Everyone knows a competitive team helps their school's enrollment. The Presidents are looking at "markets" that help ALL schools. Go back and watch the "Loyola to the A10 D1 360 video. You'll see what I'm talking about. UIC hasn't been consistently competitive in men's basketball since a little after the last time we made the Dance (2004). Even so, Chicago is the life blood of a number of Valley schools. If we're invited to the Valley, it won't be too much longer before Murray State begins to have a number of alumni living in Chicago...as well as Nashville, another booming market. Belmont making the Dance, Murray making the Dance, Loyola making the Dance, Drake making the Dance helps those individual schools' enrollments, not the entire conference. Markets help the whole league.

[RacerJoeD]

Low enrollment in comparison to other known targets of expansion. Same as Murray’s yes, but that was mentioned with us as well.

[BearsCountry]

I could see St. Thomas becoming a SLU type.

They had one of the Twin Cities major sports talk radio stations covering their football games as a D3. That means they have some clout with sports fans in a good market.

[squirrel]

While St. Thomas is an outlier as a reclassifying DIII to DI school, they still lost to Chicago State.

Also, they basically got expelled from their D3 league for dominating it, which basically also tells you that while they were successful, they burned a lot of bridges along the way.

[VUGrad1314]

St Thomas played football at UNI this year. I was pretty impressed with how many people they brought. It was their first DI game so it was a special one but it still shows enthusiasm in their programs.

I'm wrong a lot - but I think St. Thomas is a school the MVC will wish it had in 10 years.

I agree. Their progress is moving at warp speed. Good sized school in a great market that is easy to fly into. I bet they are in the A10 or better in a decade.

I'm Bullish on St Thomas as well but I can't see them rising above the MVC if they get there any time soon. Too much would have to happen to make it possible namely:

The A-10 which was loath to expand too far west until Loyola forced their hand by giving them no choice would have to add yet another midwestern school that would be as big an outlier if not moreso than SLU ever was. Defections of other members who are kind of dead weight or who have football ambitions could help this but it still feels very unlikely especially considering that the A10 already has 15 members leaving really only one spot to fill that I am sure is probably reserved for Temple if they don't like the new AAC.

The Big East which is reluctant even to add more established brand names like Dayton and St Louis would have to decide that the recently arrived in D1 and relative unknown (and even in ten years or so they would still feel that way to many Big East fans) Tommies are worthy of inclusion in a basketball league many consider to be a power league. Other than that, St Thomas has no options beyond the MVC that would be better. I'm not saying that it's impossible it's just incredibly unlikely no matter how good they get.

My choices if we went to 14 (assuming UIC is #12) are St Thomas and South Dakota State as things stand right now. One is an established top 100 caliber basketball team and a state flagship with a solid overall athletics department the other is a private school in a good market with a large endowment and a history of success albeit at the D3 level. One nice thing about it is that they are in the western part of the footprint which is good for balance. I think the best adds might very well be in the west going forward. My wait and see list is probably Bellarmine North Dakota State Northern Kentucky Wright State and Milwaukee. The latter three I want to see if their financial situations change and they can commit to being high level MVC programs. NDSU I would only be interested in if they stay FCS and focus on getting the whole of their department to MVC levels (not sure how close they are right now maybe they're there already). Bellarmine is a private school in a good market but they don't appear to have the same resources as St Thomas so I want to see how their transition to D1 continues to progress. I see them ending up in the Horizon League one day anyway and we'd have to see how they handle that before considering them. (I know the A-Sun has been better than the Horizon League recently but I don't expect that to continue when two of their better programs (Liberty and Jacksonville State) leave the conference in a year or two.)

[VUGrad1314]

Not slighting St Thomas, but private schools are the ones getting hit the worst with enrollment losses. I don’t see how adding another low enrollment private is going to help.

Honestly I don’t understand the logic of adding a market with the idea of it helping enrollment. If you add UIC, add them because they are willing to do what it takes to be a winning program. Because that’s the only way you gain traction in a market is by winning. If Drake (for example) thinks there are students to be had in Dallas or Chicago, then perhaps they advertise there or do some outreach. That’s more effective than adding a school that no one in that market cares about.

UIC has some history, and if they are willing to put the money in to do so, I think they will fit in well. If St Thomas is being looked at, it should be because of what they bring competition wise.

You don't understand the logic because you're looking at it from a fan's perspective. Everyone knows a competitive team helps their school's enrollment. The Presidents are looking at "markets" that help ALL schools. Go back and watch the "Loyola to the A10 D1 360 video. You'll see what I'm talking about. UIC hasn't been consistently competitive in men's basketball since a little after the last time we made the Dance (2004). Even so, Chicago is the life blood of a number of Valley schools. If we're invited to the Valley, it won't be too much longer before Murray State begins to have a number of alumni living in Chicago...as well as Nashville, another booming market. Belmont making the Dance, Murray making the Dance, Loyola making the Dance, Drake making the Dance helps those individual schools' enrollments, not the entire conference. Markets help the whole league.

I know I shouldn't be the one saying this as a Valpo fan (Gestures at our subpar facilities and fairly small budget) but I really hope any invite to UIC comes with the same assurances Loyola supposedly gave to spend on athletics especially men's basketball. Their budget as it is fits right in but it seems they could use a little more especially in that sport. They exude world beater potential if they get serious and if I look past the men's basketball issue as I have been doing they truly are the most attractive school on the board especially among their current peers in the Horizon League. They're a great #12 with what we have currently and what we have coming in but I hope they are committed to being great themselves. It seems that they are I just hope that ends up being the case.

[BCPanther]

Again. Hard no on the Dakotas. People think UNI is an outlier? Brookings is another 5 hours away from here and Fargo is over 7. You don't blow up your footprint to go where there's no people. There's a reason we went south.

And that's all before we talk about them 1) being a package deal and 2) how f****** awful it is to have to deal with NDSU.

[RacerJoeD]

Not slighting St Thomas, but private schools are the ones getting hit the worst with enrollment losses. I don’t see how adding another low enrollment private is going to help.

Honestly I don’t understand the logic of adding a market with the idea of it helping enrollment. If you add UIC, add them because they are willing to do what it takes to be a winning program. Because that’s the only way you gain traction in a market is by winning. If Drake (for example) thinks there are students to be had in Dallas or Chicago, then perhaps they advertise there or do some outreach. That’s more effective than adding a school that no one in that market cares about.

UIC has some history, and if they are willing to put the money in to do so, I think they will fit in well. If St Thomas is being looked at, it should be because of what they bring competition wise.

You don't understand the logic because you're looking at it from a fan's perspective. Everyone knows a competitive team helps their school's enrollment. The Presidents are looking at "markets" that help ALL schools. Go back and watch the "Loyola to the A10 D1 360 video. You'll see what I'm talking about. UIC hasn't been consistently competitive in men's basketball since a little after the last time we made the Dance (2004). Even so, Chicago is the life blood of a number of Valley schools. If we're invited to the Valley, it won't be too much longer before Murray State begins to have a number of alumni living in Chicago...as well as Nashville, another booming market. Belmont making the Dance, Murray making the Dance, Loyola making the Dance, Drake making the Dance helps those individual schools' enrollments, not the entire conference. Markets help the whole league.

If no one in the market CARES, it helps NOBODY.

[VUGrad1314]

Again. Hard no on the Dakotas. People think UNI is an outlier? Brookings is another 5 hours away from here and Fargo is over 7. You don't blow up your footprint to go where there's no people. There's a reason we went south.

And that's all before we talk about them 1) being a package deal and 2) how f****** awful it is to have to deal with NDSU.

FIVE hours? I thought it was like 3 at the most. Holy crap. Never mind. I really need to look at a map before I consider new MVC additions. I'm guessing if we do go to 14 it will be to balance publics and privates to go with St Thomas and Bellarmine if they both show enough potential. I don't think ORU will be considered for cultural reasons. If Milwaukee can resurrect their program or Little Rock can see some growth or Wright State and NKU can get healthier financially then maybe they can and will be candidates but I would have to guess that the most likely scenario IF we go to 14 eventually would be St Thomas and Bellarmine. It's also perhaps theoretically possible if we secure the media deal with Bally Sports South and Southeast that we look for candidates out of the SOCON. There are a lot of private schools there and most of them are good at basketball. That said, they've all been together for a long time I believe and that conference has a lot of tradition just like ours so it's unlikely any school would leave one for the other. My best guess is that we'll be at 12 for a long time unless and until St Thomas just absolutely beats our door down and forces us to add them.

[VUGrad1314]

Not slighting St Thomas, but private schools are the ones getting hit the worst with enrollment losses. I don’t see how adding another low enrollment private is going to help.

Honestly I don’t understand the logic of adding a market with the idea of it helping enrollment. If you add UIC, add them because they are willing to do what it takes to be a winning program. Because that’s the only way you gain traction in a market is by winning. If Drake (for example) thinks there are students to be had in Dallas or Chicago, then perhaps they advertise there or do some outreach. That’s more effective than adding a school that no one in that market cares about.

UIC has some history, and if they are willing to put the money in to do so, I think they will fit in well. If St Thomas is being looked at, it should be because of what they bring competition wise.

You don't understand the logic because you're looking at it from a fan's perspective. Everyone knows a competitive team helps their school's enrollment. The Presidents are looking at "markets" that help ALL schools. Go back and watch the "Loyola to the A10 D1 360 video. You'll see what I'm talking about. UIC hasn't been consistently competitive in men's basketball since a little after the last time we made the Dance (2004). Even so, Chicago is the life blood of a number of Valley schools. If we're invited to the Valley, it won't be too much longer before Murray State begins to have a number of alumni living in Chicago...as well as Nashville, another booming market. Belmont making the Dance, Murray making the Dance, Loyola making the Dance, Drake making the Dance helps those individual schools' enrollments, not the entire conference. Markets help the whole league.

If no one in the market CARES, it helps NOBODY.

I agree but consider this: Nobody cared about Loyola in Chicago until they were added started investing started winning and forced people to care. UIC has the monetary resources and power to do just that. And if they do they will be a terrific add. It just comes down to how much they can commit.