UIC to MVC Gaining Traction

[BCPanther]

Again. Hard no on the Dakotas. People think UNI is an outlier? Brookings is another 5 hours away from here and Fargo is over 7. You don't blow up your footprint to go where there's no people. There's a reason we went south.

And that's all before we talk about them 1) being a package deal and 2) how f****** awful it is to have to deal with NDSU.

FIVE hours? I thought it was like 3 at the most. Holy crap. Never mind. I really need to look at a map before I consider new MVC additions. I'm guessing if we do go to 14 it will be to balance publics and privates to go with St Thomas and Bellarmine if they both show enough potential. I don't think ORU will be considered for cultural reasons. If Milwaukee can resurrect their program or Little Rock can see some growth or Wright State and NKU can get healthier financially then maybe they can and will be candidates but I would have to guess that the most likely scenario IF we go to 14 eventually would be St Thomas and Bellarmine. It's also perhaps theoretically possible if we secure the media deal with Bally Sports South and Southeast that we look for candidates out of the SOCON. There are a lot of private schools there and most of them are good at basketball. That said, they've all been together for a long time I believe and that conference has a lot of tradition just like ours so it's unlikely any school would leave one for the other. My best guess is that we'll be at 12 for a long time unless and until St Thomas just absolutely beats our door down and forces us to add them.

Minneapolis is just over 3, that's totally doable but the Dakotas are way farther away than anybody realizes and I don't think the Eastern schools in the MVFC realize that all of them except USD are flights for us too and that's why divisions are a non-starter.

[Chuck A]

Not slighting St Thomas, but private schools are the ones getting hit the worst with enrollment losses. I don’t see how adding another low enrollment private is going to help.

Honestly I don’t understand the logic of adding a market with the idea of it helping enrollment. If you add UIC, add them because they are willing to do what it takes to be a winning program. Because that’s the only way you gain traction in a market is by winning. If Drake (for example) thinks there are students to be had in Dallas or Chicago, then perhaps they advertise there or do some outreach. That’s more effective than adding a school that no one in that market cares about.

UIC has some history, and if they are willing to put the money in to do so, I think they will fit in well. If St Thomas is being looked at, it should be because of what they bring competition wise.

You don't understand the logic because you're looking at it from a fan's perspective. Everyone knows a competitive team helps their school's enrollment. The Presidents are looking at "markets" that help ALL schools. Go back and watch the "Loyola to the A10 D1 360 video. You'll see what I'm talking about. UIC hasn't been consistently competitive in men's basketball since a little after the last time we made the Dance (2004). Even so, Chicago is the life blood of a number of Valley schools. If we're invited to the Valley, it won't be too much longer before Murray State begins to have a number of alumni living in Chicago...as well as Nashville, another booming market. Belmont making the Dance, Murray making the Dance, Loyola making the Dance, Drake making the Dance helps those individual schools' enrollments, not the entire conference. Markets help the whole league.

If no one in the market CARES, it helps NOBODY.

CARES about who? CARES about what? UIC? See. There you go again, thinking like a fan. It's not about UIC. IT'S ABOUT THE CHICAGO MARKET! It isn't about UIC nor was it about Loyola for that matter, that caused and still causes the bulk of The Valley schools to draw from Chicago. It won't even be about Belmont University, per se, that will eventually cause some Valley schools to draw students from Nashville. It will be because The Valley has gained a presence in the market for its member institutions that potential students are made aware of.

Hell, I've seen a Bowling Green University billboard while driving the expressways in Chicago. THAT CONFERENCE HAS NO TEAM IN CHICAGO!! They're advertising in hopes of drawing even just a minute portion of the huge potential student population.

[RacerJoeD]

If a market doesn’t care about a school, what good does adding a school have? This has less to do with UIC, but for many of these schools, they make zero impact on their market. Most in their market don’t know they exist. If a school wants to put a billboard up in a city that’s on them, but let not pretend because they go to a city ten times a year, play in front of a dozen people who work the games and no fans, get zero media attention, that somehow an entire market is unlocked to the visiting team.

[VUGrad1314]

The idea is a bit about student recruitment but mostly about alumni engagement\courting donations. That's the biggest component of this. Holding alumni association events at these games and getting donations to the school. Almost every school has a significant proportion of alumni in Chicago hence the push to hold on to at least some small presence in the market. Again I reiterate I think UIC is in a position to make people care about them in the Chicago market just like Loyola did. They just have to get serious about accomplishing that goal.

[RacerJoeD]

Alumni engagement is a much better argument to make. For example, a large portion of Racer alums are in St Louis and Nashville. Having a good presence there is important. Chicago makes that argument well for UIC. It’s part of the reason why I have supported adding UIC.

It’s seems a much weaker argument for Arlington.

[VUGrad1314]

Alumni engagement is a much better argument to make. For example, a large portion of Racer alums are in St Louis and Nashville. Having a good presence there is important. Chicago makes that argument well for UIC. It’s part of the reason why I have supported adding UIC.

It’s seems a much weaker argument for Arlington.

It's a much weaker argument FOR Arlington but it is basically the entire reason they were even considered. The D1 360 video that covered MVC expansion stated that Arlington has at least a 1% share of alumni for all MVC institutions. Texas is also a top feeder state for students for many MVC institutions. KC was considered because that's what the western schools wanted. Thankfully, saner heads seemingly have prevailed and we're not making every conference realignment decision based on alumni engagement and student recruiting and I believe we have probably taken the two most attractive schools we could (assuming UIC gets an invite) after Belmont was invited. UIC is not good at men's basketball right now to be sure but the underpinnings are certainly there for them to become a very good program if they decide to make that a goal of theirs and I think they will being in the MVC which has such a strong presence in the state from which they draw most of their students (Illinois) and also because of the elevated competition and brand names that will be coming in to play them in conference.

I break the MVC's expansion choices down into three camps and each one got a win:

There's the choice everyone (both fans\those focused on athletics first and foremost and those focused on other institutional factors like alumni engagement and recruitment) could agree on: Belmont

Then there's the athletics-centric choice: Murray State

And now (especially with the loss of Loyola) here is the Presidents' add: UIC with UIC having the potential to deliver on the field as well given their resources.

All in all I would say they did some solid work if these end up being the three additions and I'm pretty happy with how things are turning out. Personally I got the two I wanted the most by far (Belmont and Murray State) and UIC is very interesting because of their potential. Have to give the Expansion committee an A if this is how things end up.

As strange as it sounds however I think the only reason this broke down in such an agreeable way is because Loyola left for the A-10 and shuffled the entire expansion board\shifted everyone's priorities. Either we would have been at 14 with Murray State coming in alongside UT-Arlington and UMKC or it's very possible that Murray could have been left at the altar again had Loyola's departure not made the presidents have to consider the athletic future of the conference more strongly. I think the institutional resistance to adding Murray State was very real until Loyola left and their departure is of course the entire reason UIC was in the discussions at all. Again I hope that isn't true but based on all the information that came out it's very likely that we would have gone to 14 with a lot of risky athletic adds had Loyola not left or if we had stopped at 12 that 12th might very well not have been Murray State.

[BCPanther]

If the eastern schools were willing to pool travel (i.e. any trip over 350 miles is a flight paid for by the pool) then you wouldn't have heard a peep from the western schools about KC or Omaha.

UNI and Drake have two of the three biggest budgets in the new league but we're burning way too much of it in jet fuel.

[VUGrad1314]

If the eastern schools were willing to pool travel (i.e. any trip over 350 miles is a flight paid for by the pool) then you wouldn't have heard a peep from the western schools about KC or Omaha.

UNI and Drake have two of the three biggest budgets in the new league but we're burning way too much of it in jet fuel.

I sympathize. I really do. I'm all for western adds if only there were actual good adds on the western edge of the footprint. As you explained the Dakotas are too far to be palatable for anyone Omaha and UMKC are terrible and do nothing for the conference competitively St Thomas is too new and unproven ORU won't get an invite for institutional\academic\cultural reasons (if Murray had trouble convincing the presidents for institutional reasons ORU has absolutely no shot) Little Rock who I advocated for in the past has financial challenges brought on by a steep enrollment decline Arlington tried to nickel and dime the conference apparently so who can\should we go after to balance the conference out geographically?

[BCPanther]

If the eastern schools were willing to pool travel (i.e. any trip over 350 miles is a flight paid for by the pool) then you wouldn't have heard a peep from the western schools about KC or Omaha.

UNI and Drake have two of the three biggest budgets in the new league but we're burning way too much of it in jet fuel.

I sympathize. I really do. I'm all for western adds if only there were actual good adds on the western edge of the footprint. As you explained the Dakotas are too far to be palatable for anyone Omaha and UMKC are terrible and do nothing for the conference competitively St Thomas is too new and unproven ORU won't get an invite for institutional\academic\cultural reasons (if Murray had trouble convincing the presidents for institutional reasons ORU has absolutely no shot) Little Rock who I advocated for in the past has financial challenges brought on by a steep enrollment decline Arlington tried to nickel and dime the conference apparently so who can\should we go after to balance the conference out geographically?

That's just it. KC and Omaha are it and they aren't Valley ready now. Omaha has a chance in the future but we're looking at a decade from now.

I was a big proponent of Arlington because they, at least, talked a big talk about investing and it was an easy/cheap flight for everyone but once the entrance fee stuff came out, screw them.

It's fine. UNI and Drake have shown over and over they're willing to invest and we'll continue doing what we need to do to make the league better. We got some concessions in football as far as scheduling so that made this work.

I'll keep beating the drum. The league is better on 7/1/22 than it was on 7/1/21.

[VUGrad1314]

If the eastern schools were willing to pool travel (i.e. any trip over 350 miles is a flight paid for by the pool) then you wouldn't have heard a peep from the western schools about KC or Omaha.

UNI and Drake have two of the three biggest budgets in the new league but we're burning way too much of it in jet fuel.

I sympathize. I really do. I'm all for western adds if only there were actual good adds on the western edge of the footprint. As you explained the Dakotas are too far to be palatable for anyone Omaha and UMKC are terrible and do nothing for the conference competitively St Thomas is too new and unproven ORU won't get an invite for institutional\academic\cultural reasons (if Murray had trouble convincing the presidents for institutional reasons ORU has absolutely no shot) Little Rock who I advocated for in the past has financial challenges brought on by a steep enrollment decline Arlington tried to nickel and dime the conference apparently so who can\should we go after to balance the conference out geographically?

That's just it. KC and Omaha are it and they aren't Valley ready now. Omaha has a chance in the future but we're looking at a decade from now.

I was a big proponent of Arlington because they, at least, talked a big talk about investing and it was an easy/cheap flight for everyone but once the entrance fee stuff came out, screw them.

It's fine. UNI and Drake have shown over and over they're willing to invest and we'll continue doing what we need to do to make the league better. We got some concessions in football as far as scheduling so that made this work.

I'll keep beating the drum. The league is better on 7/1/22 than it was on 7/1/21.

I agree that the league will be fine going forward but I would be VERY skeptical of Omaha as an add even ten years from now. Yes their budget is there as a department but remember that they have an elite hockey program that eats up a big portion of that. They'd have to spend way more to get to the point where they could be a competitive Valley program. Do they have that in them? Maybe but I'm highly skeptical. KC needs to work on getting better in the league they're in and upgrading their facilities which might actually be worse than Valpo's which is saying something. I'd say they're more than a decade away. If we're looking a decade down the line I could definitely see St Thomas being ready but unless the league budges on ORU the other add will probably come from the east or the south if the MVC did choose to expand again unless Little Rock turns their finances around or Arlington decides they're really ready to invest that is.