"Does conference realignment pay off?"

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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby 05Racer » February 8th, 2022, 12:24 pm

racernation wrote:I'm gonna say what many Racer fans are thinking. Next year is PIVOTAL for Murray. If Coach McMahon leaves, if Tevin Brown and KJ Williams forgo their covid year, and since MVC competition is significantly better than the OVC, things could get ugly quick. If all that happens, hoping it's a fluke season and we can rebuild.


That's exactly what worries me. I think we'll be OK if just one of the two leaves but replacing both will be rough. I'm more optimistic about KJ sticking the extra year. For whatever reason, he doesn't seem to be on the NBA radar yet (though IMO he should be), and because he played as a true freshman, he's actually about a year younger than Tevin. He also still has ways he can improve his game to appeal to the NBA scouts, like hitting a better 3 percentage. I can't see what Tevin would gain from another year. If he comes back, it will be because his pro prospects don't look that great and he just wants to.

If the coach leaves, the situation has disaster written all over it. If I were Murray's AD, I would offer him a raise to whatever he can get the board to approve. He's due a raise for performance anyway, and to bring his salary up to the standards of the MVC. What he is making now would be on the low end. Hopefully this is something the AD is already working on.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby TylerDurden » February 8th, 2022, 12:59 pm

I hope that the additions of Belmont, Murray State and UIC pay off. The potential certainly is there.

Adding programs that consistently have shown to be competitive is a net positive. The league is stronger as an whole with the additions...but, I have my doubts it leads to more at-large bids for a several reasons:

1. Non-power leagues don't get many at-large bids. Outside of the B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC 12, Big 12 and Big East, you're fighting for scraps. The next tier (A10, AAC, MWC, MVC, WCC) are battling for a handful of slots. Who gets those bids has varied over the past 15 years or so, but there's a ceiling. You basically have to hope a power league looks like the ACC does this year to open a few more slots.

2. A more competitive league is likely to mean more losses. Like it or not, we've seen the committee overlook teams in the MVC (and other mid-major leagues) that have incredible computer numbers. Losing to an MVC team that's 22-5 isn't looked at the same as losing to a .500 team in the B1G. One loss is a much bigger deal in the MVC and similar leagues. Nonconference games are must-win games in order to offset an increase in conference losses. Lose in the non-con and, well, we all know what happens.

3. Transitions don't always go well. There are several examples and tons of factors, but you'd have a hard time arguing that Butler wasn't a more relevant program when they were kicking the crap out of the Horizon League. Sometimes things go well. I'd call Creighton's move a success, but Wichita State isn't trending the same way (yes, I know Gregg got himself fired for being the ass he is). Someone has to finish in last place and you can't assume the results translate from league-to-league over the long term.

4. Power leagues are stronger. Yes, the ACC is pretty much trash this year outside of Duke, but the SEC is as strong as it's ever been. The B1G is loaded; the Big 12 has some big dogs and the Big East is very strong. The PAC 12 is on an upswing as well.

5. The financial gaps aren't getting smaller. Dollars matter and without big TV deals (they aren't coming) the financial disparities continue to grow.

None of this means that the MVC can't get multiple bids on a regular basis, only that nothing can be assumed. The Valley needs to 1) Continue to win games in the tournament; 2) avoid the worst case scenario of bids staying the same and having to feed 12 instead of 10. Do that and the kids are okay.
Last edited by TylerDurden on February 8th, 2022, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby BEARZ77 » February 8th, 2022, 1:57 pm

TylerDurden wrote:I hope that the additions of Belmont, Murray State and UIC pay off. The potential certainly is there.

Adding programs that consistently have shown to be competitive is a net positive. The league is stronger as an whole with the additions...but, I have my doubts it leads to more at-large bids for a several reasons:

1. Non-power leagues don't get many at-large bids. Outside of the B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC 12, Big 12 and Big East, you're fighting for scraps. The next tier (A10, AAC, MWC, MVC, WCC) are battling for a handful of slots. Who gets those bids has varied over the past 15 years or so, but there's a ceiling. You basically have to hope a power league looks like the ACC does this year to open a few more slots.

2. A more competitive league is likely to mean more losses. Like it or not, we've seen the committee overlook teams in the MVC (and other mid-major leagues) that have incredible computer numbers. Losing to an MVC team that's 22-5 isn't looked at the same as losing to a .500 team in the B1G. One loss is a much bigger deal in the MVC and similar leagues. Nonconference games are must-win games in order to offset an increase in conference losses. Lose in the non-con and, well, we all know what happens.

3. Transitions don't always go well. There are several examples and tons of factors, but you'd have a hard time arguing that Butler wasn't a more relevant program when they were kicking the crap out of the Horizon League. Sometimes things go well. I'd call Creighton's move a success, but Wichita State isn't trending the same way (yes, I know Gregg got himself fired for being the ass he is). Someone has to finish in last place and you can't assume the results translate from league-to-league over the long term.

4. Power leagues are stronger. Yes, the ACC is pretty much trash this year outside of Duke, but the SEC is as strong as it's every been. The B1G is loaded; the Big 12 has some big dogs and the Big East is very strong. The PAC 12 is on an upswing as well.

5. The financial gaps aren't getting smaller. Dollars matter and without big TV deals (they aren't coming) the financial disparities continue to grow.

None of this means that the MVC can't get multiple bids on a regular basis, only that nothing can be assumed. The Valley needs to 1) Continue to win games in the tournament; 2) avoid the worst case scenario of bids staying the same and having to feed 12 instead of 10. Do that and the kids are okay.



"THIS". It was always my contention that while favoring the additions of Belmont and Murray St, the thinking that it would make us a multi bid league beyond what we do now was faulty. We will always have a chance at muti bids , but it comes down to noncon schedules and performing well against them. We just don't get credit for beating each other, and the opportunities in the noncon continue to get harder to schedule. Doesn't minimize the additions of the new schools, those were smart, solid adds. But the landscape for mid majors continues to be tilted against them, and if you listen to the top guys from the P-5 conferences, they want it tilted more. The NCAA will cave one way or the other , they're just too weak and fearful of the power and influence the P-5's wield with the television industry . It's a sticky wicket because of the popularity of the NCAA Men's BB tourney, but they will get their way . Really already have in so many ways. Think about small indicators like the P-5 making up only about 20% of the D-1 field, but routinely having 50% + representation on the selection committee. Think about how 80% plus of the dollars distributed by the NCAA Tourney going to the P-5's.

In pro sports they recognize how to at least attempt to maintain competitive integrity and a level playing field,but none of those things are done by the NCAA, in fact quite the opposite. Now some things aren't possible that pros routinely do; the pros ensure distribution of talent by the draft , can't do that, the pros ensure some level of equality thru standardize scheduling, can't do that. To me the biggest area the biggest way the NCAA discriminates against the non p-5's is thru how NCAA funds are distributed . The pros have levels of revenue sharing ; the opportunity for that is there by simply fairly and equitably distributing the dollars generated by the NCAA tourney across all D-1 programs. Once you pay for the travel and associated per team costs for participating in the tourney, there is no reason that the rest of the funds shouldn't be equally distributed across all membership. Have never heard a justification for why it's not, given unequal distribution is contrary to the stated goals and standards the NCAA exposes for members. Again keep in mind the purpose of the NCAA; rewarding institutions that already have all the scheduling advantages, all the recruiting advantages, and tons more avenues for already developing alternate funding , with almost all the $$$ generated by the NCAA's #1 source of revenue is just ludicrous if you really want any semblance of equal opportunity for all members. It self perpetuates the class system that now exists, and it's just getting worse.

It really is a system totally skewed against anyone outside the P-5 and it's simplistic in it's design and implementation. Design a selection system that is based as much on opportunity as performance, knowing opportunity is not equal. Design a system that is not transparent and is orchestrated by a subjective
committee process that has an unbalanced member composition. Tie all the revenue to who gets selected to participate in a tourney that has unequal means for members accessing it, ensuring they have NCAA supplemented advantages beyond all the individual institutional ones they already have. Simple, effective, and yet they aren't happy because Stony Brook might get some $$$ they want in their league coffers.
Last edited by BEARZ77 on February 8th, 2022, 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby RacerJoeD » February 8th, 2022, 2:07 pm

For all the talk of “I’m not sure you’ll make the mvc a multibid league” you’re adding two teams that made the OVC a multibid league.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby So iLL 24 » February 8th, 2022, 2:48 pm

TylerDurden wrote:I hope that the additions of Belmont, Murray State and UIC pay off. The potential certainly is there.

Adding programs that consistently have shown to be competitive is a net positive. The league is stronger as an whole with the additions...but, I have my doubts it leads to more at-large bids for a several reasons:

1. Non-power leagues don't get many at-large bids. Outside of the B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC 12, Big 12 and Big East, you're fighting for scraps. The next tier (A10, AAC, MWC, MVC, WCC) are battling for a handful of slots. Who gets those bids has varied over the past 15 years or so, but there's a ceiling. You basically have to hope a power league looks like the ACC does this year to open a few more slots.

2. A more competitive league is likely to mean more losses. Like it or not, we've seen the committee overlook teams in the MVC (and other mid-major leagues) that have incredible computer numbers. Losing to an MVC team that's 22-5 isn't looked at the same as losing to a .500 team in the B1G. One loss is a much bigger deal in the MVC and similar leagues. Nonconference games are must-win games in order to offset an increase in conference losses. Lose in the non-con and, well, we all know what happens.

3. Transitions don't always go well. There are several examples and tons of factors, but you'd have a hard time arguing that Butler wasn't a more relevant program when they were kicking the crap out of the Horizon League. Sometimes things go well. I'd call Creighton's move a success, but Wichita State isn't trending the same way (yes, I know Gregg got himself fired for being the ass he is). Someone has to finish in last place and you can't assume the results translate from league-to-league over the long term.

4. Power leagues are stronger. Yes, the ACC is pretty much trash this year outside of Duke, but the SEC is as strong as it's every been. The B1G is loaded; the Big 12 has some big dogs and the Big East is very strong. The PAC 12 is on an upswing as well.

5. The financial gaps aren't getting smaller. Dollars matter and without big TV deals (they aren't coming) the financial disparities continue to grow.

None of this means that the MVC can't get multiple bids on a regular basis, only that nothing can be assumed. The Valley needs to 1) Continue to win games in the tournament; 2) avoid the worst case scenario of bids staying the same and having to feed 12 instead of 10. Do that and the kids are okay.



I agree with a lot of what you're saying. That is why it all boils down to out-of-conference scheduling, getting into quality MTE's, and more importantly winning against good competition. Our top 4 teams failed to do that this year. Northern Iowa has horrible losses on their resume and Missouri State and Drake had opportunities but didn't capitalize. Had Missouri State defeated ETSU, SEMO, and BYU they would be in at large discussions with a current NET ranking of 65 with those losses. Change those games to wins and they're in the 40's (can't lose to Illinois State and Indiana State as well). Drake has a NET ranking of 93 and they would have been in talks if they could have defeated North Texas (51), Belmont (45), and Clemson (78).
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby 05Racer » February 8th, 2022, 8:59 pm

BCPanther wrote:
Redbird82 wrote:
RacerJoeD wrote:That’s the crux of the question. I mean, Murray and Belmont have made the OVC a multibid conference. Putting them into a conference 10 places higher in the rankings can’t hurt

If I’m looking at it correctly, in the last 30+ years the OVC has had 1 at large bid despite Murray and Belmont success. If that’s correct why do we assume the MVC will now be a consistent 2 bid conference?


Belmont has only been in the league for 8 years.

Also, there's nothing they can do about the boat anchors that are the rest of the league.


:+1:
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby Murraygrad05 » February 9th, 2022, 12:25 am

Last place in the OVC (Eastern Illinois NET 355) means there are only 3 teams in all of D1 ranked lower than you.

Being last place in the MVC (Evansville NET 312) means that there are 5 OVC teams between you and the next highest MVC team (Valpo NET 212)

Adding 2 perennial top 50-100 NET teams certainly cannot hurt the argument for a 2 bid league annually. The OVC should have been a multiple bid league a couple of years, a good example is our 2015 team, but due to the crappy strength of our conference we got sent to NIT and might could have brought it home if it hadn't been for a half court heave by Old Dominion.

Yes stronger competition means a better chance for losses, but it also brings a better chance for upper tier wins and a resume boost. Will Murray and Belmont compete for a championship right away? We'll just have to wait and see but recent history has shown that we can hold on our own with the MVC.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby BEARZ77 » February 9th, 2022, 7:17 am

I don't think anybody thinks Murray St and Belmont won't be fine in the MVC, and what their learning curve will be , only time will tell. I think the difference between playing an MVC team or 2 in noncon and the wear and tear of an MVC regular season schedule is the big issue to be seen as to it's impact. The difference between playing a quality team 50% of a schedule vs playing one 17-18 x over 8 weeks can be difficult , and the difference between the prep a team does for you when you're a noncon 1x game, vs how you're scouted and prepared for after the league has seen you 15 x, again can be an adjustment. 16-2 can be 10-8 pretty easily in this league because of the parity and drain , but again only time will tell. Hope Murray and Belmont have good spring/summers and enter the Valley at the top of their game, and then let the chips fall.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby Kyle_Saluki_17 » February 10th, 2022, 12:56 pm

BEARZ77 wrote:I don't think anybody thinks Murray St and Belmont won't be fine in the MVC, and what their learning curve will be , only time will tell. I think the difference between playing an MVC team or 2 in noncon and the wear and tear of an MVC regular season schedule is the big issue to be seen as to it's impact. The difference between playing a quality team 50% of a schedule vs playing one 17-18 x over 8 weeks can be difficult , and the difference between the prep a team does for you when you're a noncon 1x game, vs how you're scouted and prepared for after the league has seen you 15 x, again can be an adjustment. 16-2 can be 10-8 pretty easily in this league because of the parity and drain , but again only time will tell. Hope Murray and Belmont have good spring/summers and enter the Valley at the top of their game, and then let the chips fall.

This is exactly right, I I think Murray fans will learn this. Murray could easily compete for a championship next year, and will probably be preseason #1. They've earned it. But a 10-8 team here could easily be just as good as a 16-2 team in the OVC. But there is no convincing the fans that the 10-8 team is just as good. A couple of bad bounces (or a questionable call) here can make you 2-5 instead of 5-2. I should know, I was at SIU when we lost to Drake and Northern Iowa at home, both by 1 point, 2 nights apart from each other. Now we are struggling to stay out of Thursday. Just so many close games in this league, regardless of the standings.
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Re: "Does conference realignment pay off?"

Postby BCPanther » February 10th, 2022, 1:02 pm

Kyle_Saluki_17 wrote:
BEARZ77 wrote:I don't think anybody thinks Murray St and Belmont won't be fine in the MVC, and what their learning curve will be , only time will tell. I think the difference between playing an MVC team or 2 in noncon and the wear and tear of an MVC regular season schedule is the big issue to be seen as to it's impact. The difference between playing a quality team 50% of a schedule vs playing one 17-18 x over 8 weeks can be difficult , and the difference between the prep a team does for you when you're a noncon 1x game, vs how you're scouted and prepared for after the league has seen you 15 x, again can be an adjustment. 16-2 can be 10-8 pretty easily in this league because of the parity and drain , but again only time will tell. Hope Murray and Belmont have good spring/summers and enter the Valley at the top of their game, and then let the chips fall.

This is exactly right, I I think Murray fans will learn this. Murray could easily compete for a championship next year, and will probably be preseason #1. They've earned it. But a 10-8 team here could easily be just as good as a 16-2 team in the OVC. But there is no convincing the fans that the 10-8 team is just as good. A couple of bad bounces (or a questionable call) here can make you 2-5 instead of 5-2. I should know, I was at SIU when we lost to Drake and Northern Iowa at home, both by 1 point, 2 nights apart from each other. Now we are struggling to stay out of Thursday. Just so many close games in this league, regardless of the standings.


The level of coaching and scouting jumps big time too. There are no Jacobson, DeVries, Wardle and Mullins defensive minds in the OVC.

A one off is so different because those coaches see you in a vacuum getting ready to play you one night. Now those great minds are going to not only fully scout you twice getting ready to play you, they're going to see you every time you're playing somebody else their getting ready for. Those guys don't forget.
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