Another Expansion/Realignment Thread

[squirrel]

While it's just semantics, I do think there will be an upper division that may break from the NCAA entirely. What is left behind would still potentially be a DI. Or a DI-light if that split stays in the NCAA fold.

Effectively, it's still a second division.

But, a Valley in that situation would be a top league and still compete for national championships. And I believe NBA and high-level professional level talent will still emerge from such a division.

[BCPanther]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

[BUFanatic]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

This is what I hope for. Lots of history in the Valley and strong basketball conference. We have to do our part to continue to do better and increase this liklihood but I think it's possible.

Pretty sure they shift the Big East to P for basketball. Was P5 for football and P6 for basketball. Curious as to your reasoning behind the Ivy being in that same class. Mone/history?

[TylerDurden]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

I'd love to believe that's true, but the big guys don't need (or want) those leagues interfering/interloping in anything they decide to do.

If there's another division, there's no anti-trust concern. We have that structure now, complete with barriers to entry.

If there's a split, we're in the second tier, or worse, because that cuts off a huge revenue stream. Some schools in the MVC will be fine, others won't.

[BCPanther]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

This is what I hope for. Lots of history in the Valley and strong basketball conference. We have to do our part to continue to do better and increase this liklihood but I think it's possible.

Pretty sure they shift the Big East to P for basketball. Was P5 for football and P6 for basketball. Curious as to your reasoning behind the Ivy being in that same class. Mone/history?

It's politically impossible to leave the Ivy behind because of the academic/money/connections/influential alumni aspect that those institutions bring with them.

[BCPanther]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

I'd love to believe that's true, but the big guys don't need (or want) those leagues interfering/interloping in anything they decide to do.

If there's another division, there's no anti-trust concern. We have that structure now, complete with barriers to entry.

If there's a split, we're in the second tier, or worse, because that cuts off a huge revenue stream. Some schools in the MVC will be fine, others won't.

I'll disagree there. It isn't the mid-major+ leagues (or Next 5 as KenPom has started calling them) that the big guys are getting tired of. It's the revolving door leagues that just keep bringing up D2s and bloating D1 along with the leagues with budgets so small they're not serious about competing.

[TylerDurden]

I actually think the Valley, A10, Ivy and WCC (at least the schools in those leagues willing to commit) make the cut to stay in the top level unless there's true Armageddon. The new DI would be the P?, G5, Big East, Valley, Ivy, A10 and WCC. 180ish teams with a 96 team NCAA tournament that makes money hand over fist.

The P? don't want to end up tied up in court over anti-trust concerns

I'd love to believe that's true, but the big guys don't need (or want) those leagues interfering/interloping in anything they decide to do.

If there's another division, there's no anti-trust concern. We have that structure now, complete with barriers to entry.

If there's a split, we're in the second tier, or worse, because that cuts off a huge revenue stream. Some schools in the MVC will be fine, others won't.

I'll disagree there. It isn't the mid-major+ leagues (or Next 5 as KenPom has started calling them) that the big guys are getting tired of. It's the revolving door leagues that just keep bringing up D2s and bloating D1 along with the leagues with budgets so small they're not serious about competing.

It's about splitting money. The big guys want it all for themselves, they always have. In the hypothetical situation of a split with the big guys doing their own thing, they absolutely don't need the G5, MVC or anyone else to negotiate very lucrative television contracts for an end-of-season basketball tournament.

I'm certainly not saying it would be a better tournament than the David v Goliath matchups we see now - I think that's the big appeal of the first weekend, and rating have shown as much - but that doesn't mean they care, even if they should, because financial considerations trump everything else.

All of that said, I think we agree that there are very real political/legal implications for a split and/or changes to the NCAA tournament structure that exclude anyone, so it's hard to create a timeline for any of these hypotheticals.

[E-Villan]

It's about splitting money. The big guys want it all for themselves, they always have. In the hypothetical situation of a split with the big guys doing their own thing, they absolutely don't need the G5, MVC or anyone else to negotiate very lucrative television contracts for an end-of-season basketball tournament.

I'm certainly not saying it would be a better tournament than the David v Goliath matchups we see now - I think that's the big appeal of the first weekend, and rating have shown as much - but that doesn't mean they care, even if they should, because financial considerations trump everything else.

All of that said, I think we agree that there are very real political/legal implications for a split and/or changes to the NCAA tournament structure that exclude anyone, so it's hard to create a timeline for any of these hypotheticals.

I too would like to believe BC is right but you're correct. It's not only about the money from the contracts, think about enrollment and prestige. We state presidents are concerned about enrollment possibilities when discussing expansion. If they can separate themselves from us, it only helps their brand and prestige on student recruitment. Not only are we left out, I think that mindset will keep even the non-football BE schools out. Take Nebraska, the Huskers are no longer the premier basketball program in their state. A separation in classifications with Creighton would change that with the stroke of that pen. The good news is there will be enough good programs left out that we should be something more relevant than D-2 is now.

They don't need us in the least. David vs Goliath simply becomes Northwestern vs Kentucky.

Help me understand these legal issues. There is nothing now that prevents schools from creating and joining new conferences. Why couldn't the current P5 schools simply create new conferences and then those conferences decide they are not going to be NCAA schools, rather a different organization that is created? For this example, the American Collegiate Athletic Conference. Why wouldn't a school or even conference be free to join the ACAA just as one can now move to the NAIA?

[BCPanther]

It's about splitting money. The big guys want it all for themselves, they always have. In the hypothetical situation of a split with the big guys doing their own thing, they absolutely don't need the G5, MVC or anyone else to negotiate very lucrative television contracts for an end-of-season basketball tournament.

I'm certainly not saying it would be a better tournament than the David v Goliath matchups we see now - I think that's the big appeal of the first weekend, and rating have shown as much - but that doesn't mean they care, even if they should, because financial considerations trump everything else.

All of that said, I think we agree that there are very real political/legal implications for a split and/or changes to the NCAA tournament structure that exclude anyone, so it's hard to create a timeline for any of these hypotheticals.

I too would like to believe BC is right but you're correct. It's not only about the money from the contracts, think about enrollment and prestige. We state presidents are concerned about enrollment possibilities when discussing expansion. If they can separate themselves from us, it only helps their brand and prestige on student recruitment. Not only are we left out, I think that mindset will keep even the non-football BE schools out. Take Nebraska, the Huskers are no longer the premier basketball program in their state. A separation in classifications with Creighton would change that with the stroke of that pen. The good news is there will be enough good programs left out that we should be something more relevant than D-2 is now.

They don't need us in the least. David vs Goliath simply becomes Northwestern vs Kentucky.

Help me understand these legal issues. There is nothing now that prevents schools from creating and joining new conferences. Why couldn't the current P5 schools simply create new conferences and then those conferences decide they are not going to be NCAA schools, rather a different organization that is created? For this example, the American Collegiate Athletic Conference. Why wouldn't a school or even conference be free to join the ACAA just as one can now move to the NAIA?

It would be nearly impossible for a new organization to get non-profit status like the NCAA has plus all of the other legalities that the NCAA has long since worked out.

[Aces44]

It's about splitting money. The big guys want it all for themselves, they always have. In the hypothetical situation of a split with the big guys doing their own thing, they absolutely don't need the G5, MVC or anyone else to negotiate very lucrative television contracts for an end-of-season basketball tournament.

I'm certainly not saying it would be a better tournament than the David v Goliath matchups we see now - I think that's the big appeal of the first weekend, and rating have shown as much - but that doesn't mean they care, even if they should, because financial considerations trump everything else.

All of that said, I think we agree that there are very real political/legal implications for a split and/or changes to the NCAA tournament structure that exclude anyone, so it's hard to create a timeline for any of these hypotheticals.

I too would like to believe BC is right but you're correct. It's not only about the money from the contracts, think about enrollment and prestige. We state presidents are concerned about enrollment possibilities when discussing expansion. If they can separate themselves from us, it only helps their brand and prestige on student recruitment. Not only are we left out, I think that mindset will keep even the non-football BE schools out. Take Nebraska, the Huskers are no longer the premier basketball program in their state. A separation in classifications with Creighton would change that with the stroke of that pen. The good news is there will be enough good programs left out that we should be something more relevant than D-2 is now.

They don't need us in the least. David vs Goliath simply becomes Northwestern vs Kentucky.

Help me understand these legal issues. There is nothing now that prevents schools from creating and joining new conferences. Why couldn't the current P5 schools simply create new conferences and then those conferences decide they are not going to be NCAA schools, rather a different organization that is created? For this example, the American Collegiate Athletic Conference. Why wouldn't a school or even conference be free to join the ACAA just as one can now move to the NAIA?

It would be nearly impossible for a new organization to get non-profit status like the NCAA has plus all of the other legalities that the NCAA has long since worked out.

You mean all the “legalities” that the NCAA has been smacked around in court for the last several years?