The Case for Indiana St

[valleychamp]

Top of my head, Wichita State two years ago and Creighton four. Two years ago, Wichita State finished second to Missouri State and both Missouri State and Wichita State were left out as Indiana State won in St Louis. Four years ago, Creighton tied UNI for the regular season, but was beaten by Illinois State in the second round in St. Louis. There are three recent examples of bubble or better teams left out based on conference strength.

You're looking at those teams without any context whatsoever. Those teams had every opportunity to get a bid. Was the league weaker those years? Yes, and I'm sure that hurt them to an extent. They had opportunities to pick up good wins, and they failed in many of those instances.

I distinctly remember WSU blowing several opportunities to to beat good teams that year, and they also dropped some real stinkers. 4 years ago, CU (despite a really weak schedule, which contributed to their demise) was all set to get a bid until they blew it by getting humiliated by 20-30 points at the hands of Ill St in STL.

[MoValley John]

If an upset person is disgruntled, doesn't it only make sense that a happy person is gruntled?

Just asking.

[Aces1982]

Such a weak and pathetic excuse....the league cost us the bid. Look in the mirror. It wasn't the league, it was because you couldn't win a few more games. So tired of that excuse, it's everyone else's fault.

[MoValley John]

Top of my head, Wichita State two years ago and Creighton four. Two years ago, Wichita State finished second to Missouri State and both Missouri State and Wichita State were left out as Indiana State won in St Louis. Four years ago, Creighton tied UNI for the regular season, but was beaten by Illinois State in the second round in St. Louis. There are three recent examples of bubble or better teams left out based on conference strength.

You're looking at those teams without any context whatsoever. Those teams had every opportunity to get a bid. Was the league weaker those years? Yes, and I'm sure that hurt them to an extent. They had opportunities to pick up good wins, and they failed in many of instances.

I distinctly remember WSU blowing several opportunities to to beat good teams that year, and they also dropped some real stinkers. 4 years ago, CU (despite a really weak schedule, which contributed to their demise) was all set to get a bid until they blew it by getting humiliated by 20-30 points at the hands of Ill St in STL.

And if each team's ooc rpi was a mere 10 spots higher, they would be in. UNI would have received higher seeds as well. There is plenty of blame to go around, Illinois State scheduling like girls under Jank, Creighton losing a game here or there, but mostly, it's the Evansville Syndrome. Play like crap in the non-con and win games in conference. Missouri State is the poster child this year and it's frustrating. And when you look at the money being pissed away, everybody should be frustrated.

[MoValley John]

Such a weak and pathetic excuse....the league cost us the bid. Look in the mirror. It wasn't the league, it was because you couldn't win a few more games. So tired of that excuse, it's everyone else's fault.

So Missouri State shouldn't have danced two years ago? Really? Guess what snappy, if Missouri State beat Indiana State, simply because of the rest of the league, Indiana State would have been left at home. The Valley, not because one team didn't win more game, but because 10 teams didn't win one more game, was a one bid league. Add that to the annual tank job by a team in the non-con, you go from multibid to single bid fast. And yes, we can thank Missouri State for that this year. I think they understand; they are simply returning the favor for being the victim of this so many times.

[havoc]

Top of my head, Wichita State two years ago and Creighton four. Two years ago, Wichita State finished second to Missouri State and both Missouri State and Wichita State were left out as Indiana State won in St Louis. Four years ago, Creighton tied UNI for the regular season, but was beaten by Illinois State in the second round in St. Louis. There are three recent examples of bubble or better teams left out based on conference strength.

You're looking at those teams without any context whatsoever. Those teams had every opportunity to get a bid. Was the league weaker those years? Yes, and I'm sure that hurt them to an extent. They had opportunities to pick up good wins, and they failed in many of instances.

I distinctly remember WSU blowing several opportunities to to beat good teams that year, and they also dropped some real stinkers. 4 years ago, CU (despite a really weak schedule, which contributed to their demise) was all set to get a bid until they blew it by getting humiliated by 20-30 points at the hands of Ill St in STL.

And if each team's ooc rpi was a mere 10 spots higher, they would be in. UNI would have received higher seeds as well. There is plenty of blame to go around, Illinois State scheduling like girls under Jank, Creighton losing a game here or there, but mostly, it's the Evansville Syndrome. Play like crap in the non-con and win games in conference. Missouri State is the poster child this year and it's frustrating. And when you look at the money being pissed away, everybody should be frustrated.

Do you honestly believe teams lose games in the non-conference seasons on purpose in order to play spoiler in the MVC? I really think some of you believe this. Since MSU had a wretched non-con, what are they supposed to do? Mail it in the rest of the season so they can get a few extra dollars a year because another MVC team got an NCAA bid?

It is funny, I never heard any Butler fan's citing weak teams in the Horizon League as the reason they weren't successful. The HL is by almost all accounts weaker than the MVC but that didn't stop them from going to the NCAA's five consecutive years with single digit seeds. The same thing can be said for Gonzaga. The WCC has about the same perceived strength as the MVC, but somehow Gonzaga and St. Mary's (of late) of still been able to sustain national success.

I understand that we as fans think our schools are infallible and look to shift the blame for lack of success elsewhere. However, pushing the blame to the conference is really week. Other programs around the country have had great success while playing in similar or weaker conferences.

[valleychamp]

Top of my head, Wichita State two years ago and Creighton four. Two years ago, Wichita State finished second to Missouri State and both Missouri State and Wichita State were left out as Indiana State won in St Louis. Four years ago, Creighton tied UNI for the regular season, but was beaten by Illinois State in the second round in St. Louis. There are three recent examples of bubble or better teams left out based on conference strength.

You're looking at those teams without any context whatsoever. Those teams had every opportunity to get a bid. Was the league weaker those years? Yes, and I'm sure that hurt them to an extent. They had opportunities to pick up good wins, and they failed in many of instances.

I distinctly remember WSU blowing several opportunities to to beat good teams that year, and they also dropped some real stinkers. 4 years ago, CU (despite a really weak schedule, which contributed to their demise) was all set to get a bid until they blew it by getting humiliated by 20-30 points at the hands of Ill St in STL.

And if each team's ooc rpi was a mere 10 spots higher, they would be in. UNI would have received higher seeds as well. There is plenty of blame to go around, Illinois State scheduling like girls under Jank, Creighton losing a game here or there, but mostly, it's the Evansville Syndrome. Play like crap in the non-con and win games in conference. Missouri State is the poster child this year and it's frustrating. And when you look at the money being pissed away, everybody should be frustrated.

Right, and I said that it certainly contributed, but it also certainly was not "the reason". The way you laid it out was completely lame cop-out excuse. In both of your examples, those teams were likely literally ONE win away from earning bids. They had plenty of chances to pick up wins and get a bid, but they weren't able to win those games.

Really if anything, the main issue within the conference regarding ability to get bids is that we are often TOO good as a whole. Its too hard to win in our league because there are rarely a large group of weak teams like other conferences have. Look at a comparable mid-major conference like the WCC, they have Gonzaga at the top and St Marys has been right up there for the last several years as well. After those two, there is nothing there. They are able to run through their league without much damage. Whereas, in the Valley its difficult to go on the road and beat the 7th or 8th place team and you are going to lose a few of those games. And every year it changes--nearly everyone in this league has had their time at the top in the last 10-12 years.

We are often stuck in that "middle ground" where we are too good for our own good, and that costs us some bids by beating up on each other.

[havoc]

So Missouri State shouldn't have danced two years ago? Really? Guess what snappy, if Missouri State beat Indiana State, simply because of the rest of the league, Indiana State would have been left at home. The Valley, not because one team didn't win more game, but because 10 teams didn't win one more game, was a one bid league. Add that to the annual tank job by a team in the non-con, you go from multibid to single bid fast. And yes, we can thank Missouri State for that this year. I think they understand; they are simply returning the favor for being the victim of this so many times.

No, MSU should not have danced two years ago. They had two good wins over WSU (36). After that, they had nothing. Their only other top 100 win was at home to Indiana State.

[isumvc1]

I think we need to beat CU & WSU in Terre Haute to realistically have any shot at an at-large bid. Right now we are 2-4 against the top 50 RPI teams, 2 more wins vs. RPI top 50 teams would really help. I am assuming we'll lose at WSU, but ya never know.

And we need a bracketbuster win, but that game is gonna be against a team outside the top 100 RPI, so that will hurt, we need to win that game by a lot of points.

really need to go 14-4 or 13-5 in MVC play. Not sure who else we can afford to lose to in MVC play, other than WSU and CU?? Any loss to other teams will hurt us. The game at ILS will be tough, they'll be out for revenge, so I won't be shocked if we lose there.

We have work to do

[MoValley John]

You're looking at those teams without any context whatsoever. Those teams had every opportunity to get a bid. Was the league weaker those years? Yes, and I'm sure that hurt them to an extent. They had opportunities to pick up good wins, and they failed in many of instances.

I distinctly remember WSU blowing several opportunities to to beat good teams that year, and they also dropped some real stinkers. 4 years ago, CU (despite a really weak schedule, which contributed to their demise) was all set to get a bid until they blew it by getting humiliated by 20-30 points at the hands of Ill St in STL.

And if each team's ooc rpi was a mere 10 spots higher, they would be in. UNI would have received higher seeds as well. There is plenty of blame to go around, Illinois State scheduling like girls under Jank, Creighton losing a game here or there, but mostly, it's the Evansville Syndrome. Play like crap in the non-con and win games in conference. Missouri State is the poster child this year and it's frustrating. And when you look at the money being pissed away, everybody should be frustrated.

Right, and I said that it certainly contributed, but it also certainly was not "the reason". The way you laid it out was completely lame cop-out excuse. In both of your examples, those teams were likely literally ONE win away from earning bids. They had plenty of chances to pick up wins and get a bid, but they weren't able to win those games.

Really if anything, the main issue within the conference regarding ability to get bids is that we are often [i]TOO[/ i] good as a whole. Its too hard to win in our league because there are rarely a large group of weak teams like other conferences have. Look at a comparable mid-major conference like the WCC, they have Gonzaga at the top and St Marys has been right up there for the last several years as well. After those two, there is nothing there. They are able to run through their league without much damage. Whereas, in the Valley its difficult to go on the road and beat the 7th or 8th place team and you are going to lose a few of those games. And every year it changes--nearly everyone in this league has had their time at the top in the last 10-12 years.

We are often stuck in that "middle ground" where we are too good for our own good, and that costs us some bids by beating up on each other.

There is truth to the "Valley of Death" but the non-conference is the bread and butter of the mids. The fact of the matter is this: the selection committee looks for reasons to exclude teams from the mids, not include them. The just win one more game attitude simply reinforces that mindset. You can't have teams tanking the noncon or scheduling weak and expect the selection committee to look for reasons to include that way. Illinois State was very good under Jank, their pathetic scheduling required them to be perfect, they were excluded. And when they beat Valley teams, that excluded them as well. When Evansville does what Evansville does best, the Valley loses bids. If Missouri State keeps winning this year, it could cost a bid. Right now, it looks like both Creighton and Wichita State are locks, a few perceived bad losses and this could be another one bid. It's not as simple as win one more game.