Welcome Loyola

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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby rlh04d » April 17th, 2013, 12:10 am

LanceShock wrote:
unipanther99 wrote:If the report of this being a unanimous decision turns out to be true, those upset with the decision need to first look at their own university president before directing their anger elsewhere.

That is naive. By the time the vote came up, I would be shocked if it wasn't already known that Loyola would have enough votes to be accepted. At that point, it would be shooting your own school in the foot to vote against accepting them. Do you really want to be the one school who voted against it?

There are benefits to at least going through the motions of holding hands and singing kumbayah with everyone else, even if you don't agree with what is being done.

On the plus side, Loyola can't hurt the Valley's RPI much more than Missouri State did last year, can they?

Agreed. Once you have 7 for it, there's no reason for the other 2 to vote against it except to lodge a protest vote. It's poor politics, and not only makes the conference look officially divided, but loses you support with the 7 that were for it, and makes the new member immediately bitter against you.

On the topic of Missouri State ... one definite positive I can say for Loyola is that they beat the bad teams they should beat. They were 12-1 against teams with RPIs 194+. Missouri State absolutely cannot say that. Their record against teams with those RPIs was horrible.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby DoubleJayAlum » April 17th, 2013, 5:57 am

rlh04d wrote:Many of the teams in this conference are losing money from their basketball teams despite averaging more than double the amount of fans Loyola does.


I don't buy bolded part of this for one second.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby DoubleJayAlum » April 17th, 2013, 6:18 am

saluki762 wrote:
AndShock wrote:I will admit Loyola is probably the better long-term choice but like it has been stated, as a Wichita State fan I don't give a crap about the Valley and I want it to be as good as possible right now.

What an incredibly short sighted and ignorant view. I can understand trepidation about the admission of Loyola but if you can admit that they are most likely the best long term choice but don't care because you are all about the right now, your view is quite insane.


Of course it is short sighted and ignorant. But consider the source and the situation. A good portion of WSU fans believe one or more of the following and it colors their view of what the MVC should do:

1) They have one foot out of the door. They believe that they are on the verge of moving out of the conference soon. Who cares about long term if you won't be around to see it?

2) They are afraid of losing their head coach. Marshall left a one bid league and moved to the MVC because he thought it was a multi-bid league. The fear is that if it reverts to a one bid league, Marshall will move on. As a result, adding a team that can compete for NCAA bids immediately is much more important than adding a team that may be the best candidate long term.

3) WSU has a lengthy history of failing in St Louis. Ever since the conference the tourney moved away from school sites to the neutral St Louis, WSU has failed to win a single conference tourney. Even when WSU won conference titles (2006 and 2012), they failed to even make the championship, let alone win it. The idea that the only bid will go to the conference tourney champ is especially troubling when you have that sort of history.

4) Creighton is the team that is leaving. If anybody else left, it wouldn't bother certain WSU fans so much. They consider Creighton their primary rival (some taking the rivalry to extreme levels). Losing your rival causes one to want to replace that team with another that is of the same level that you can immediately have the same level of hate. (It is probably worth adding, parenthetically, that to a segment of the WSU fanbase, seeing CU leave while they have to stay is more infuriating than anything else possibly could be; the jealousy was/is overwhelming. After the speculation about Creighton leaving broke, there were several such comments on Shockernet along these very lines).

When you believe one or more of the above, you naturally tend to think short term rather than long term.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby unipanther99 » April 17th, 2013, 7:01 am

rlh04d wrote:
unipanther99 wrote:I really hope adding a baseball team is not a condition the Valley is requesting for membership. I would much rather the money be put into the sport that drives this conference.

http://www.valley-football.org/


I don't understand your point. I've not been proposing football should be a factor in MVC realignment. If I was going to be greedy, I'd want a team with a strong women's volleyball program, but that shouldn't be a factor either.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby TheShock » April 17th, 2013, 7:06 am

DoubleJayAlum wrote:
saluki762 wrote:
AndShock wrote:I will admit Loyola is probably the better long-term choice but like it has been stated, as a Wichita State fan I don't give a crap about the Valley and I want it to be as good as possible right now.

What an incredibly short sighted and ignorant view. I can understand trepidation about the admission of Loyola but if you can admit that they are most likely the best long term choice but don't care because you are all about the right now, your view is quite insane.


Of course it is short sighted and ignorant. But consider the source and the situation. A good portion of WSU fans believe one or more of the following and it colors their view of what the MVC should do:

1) They have one foot out of the door. They believe that they are on the verge of moving out of the conference soon. Who cares about long term if you won't be around to see it?

2) They are afraid of losing their head coach. Marshall left a one bid league and moved to the MVC because he thought it was a multi-bid league. The fear is that if it reverts to a one bid league, Marshall will move on. As a result, adding a team that can compete for NCAA bids immediately is much more important than adding a team that may be the best candidate long term.

3) WSU has a lengthy history of failing in St Louis. Ever since the conference the tourney moved away from school sites to the neutral St Louis, WSU has failed to win a single conference tourney. Even when WSU won conference titles (2006 and 2012), they failed to even make the championship, let alone win it. The idea that the only bid will go to the conference tourney champ is especially troubling when you have that sort of history.

4) Creighton is the team that is leaving. If anybody else left, it wouldn't bother certain WSU fans so much. They consider Creighton their primary rival (some taking the rivalry to extreme levels). Losing your rival causes one to want to replace that team with another that is of the same level that you can immediately have the same level of hate. (It is probably worth adding, parenthetically, that to a segment of the WSU fanbase, seeing CU leave while they have to stay is more infuriating than anything else possibly could be; the jealousy was/is overwhelming. After the speculation about Creighton leaving broke, there were several such comments on Shockernet along these very lines).

When you believe one or more of the above, you naturally tend to think short term rather than long term.


I don’t post much here, however that’s 99% horse$hit and I couldn’t begin to dissect your drivel. You’re talking about a handful of Shocker fans that post on MVCfans and Shockernet and they sure as hell don’t represent the opinions of most WSU fans. You probably need to take your ‘digs’ elsewhere… you’re starting to sound like a BCS fan. :Bam:
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby brianbown » April 17th, 2013, 8:39 am

As a graduate of Illinois State for my undergraduate and my Masters Degree from Loyola I'm happy to see the Ramblers joining the MVC. Greater exposure for the league in Chicago will bring more players from the city and burbs.
Maybe it's time to move the tournament to the United Center in Chicago.
As for Creighton joining the Big East, good luck. They are on an up cycle now. But what's going to happen down the road. I remember when Creighton seldom made it past the first round of the tournament.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby flybird1 » April 17th, 2013, 8:48 am

I too think the shock nation is being shortsighted about all this. What motivation will they give LU to sweep their non-con? What will you do? Will Wushock do 20 backflips in a row? Ramblers bring it, shut these guys up.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby shocktheheart » April 17th, 2013, 8:54 am

brianbown wrote:As a graduate of Illinois State for my undergraduate and my Masters Degree from Loyola I'm happy to see the Ramblers joining the MVC. Greater exposure for the league in Chicago will bring more players from the city and burbs.
Maybe it's time to move the tournament to the United Center in Chicago.
As for Creighton joining the Big East, good luck. They are on an up cycle now. But what's going to happen down the road. I remember when Creighton seldom made it past the first round of the tournament.


If you want to see nobody at the Valley Tourney go ahead and move it to Chicago. 725 miles from Wichita and WSU will have the most fans by far now that Creighton is gone in St. Louis. Most fans aren't going to pony up for a plane ticket especially in a year if they are a NCAA tourney team.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby Sir Sci » April 17th, 2013, 9:06 am

shocktheheart wrote:
brianbown wrote:As a graduate of Illinois State for my undergraduate and my Masters Degree from Loyola I'm happy to see the Ramblers joining the MVC. Greater exposure for the league in Chicago will bring more players from the city and burbs.
Maybe it's time to move the tournament to the United Center in Chicago.
As for Creighton joining the Big East, good luck. They are on an up cycle now. But what's going to happen down the road. I remember when Creighton seldom made it past the first round of the tournament.


If you want to see nobody at the Valley Tourney go ahead and move it to Chicago. 725 miles from Wichita and WSU will have the most fans by far now that Creighton is gone in St. Louis. Most fans aren't going to pony up for a plane ticket especially in a year if they are a NCAA tourney team.


Agreed, we keep it Arch Madness in St. Louis.
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Re: Welcome Loyola

Postby frankthetank » April 17th, 2013, 9:09 am

m-v-c wrote:Most of your points agree with. But personally think a lot of the demographics stuff, while it holds some truth overall in higher education, in the case of the MVC is overanalysis. Think it's just as likely the MVC picked Loyola/Chicago because 1) it was a bigger city, 2) it was a city in the conference's footprint already, 3) it's a city where the league has a TV partner, 4) Loyola is a private school similar to Creighton, and most importantly 5) of the schools they looked at, they feel Loyola is clearly the best one in terms of its academics, finances and facilities, and they feel the school has tremendous potential. Don't think it had anything to do with trying to push the conference further east so they can compete for the same kids A-10 and CAA schools are recruiting. The MVC and its members know their niche; occasionally a member may outgrow the conference, but overall this is a Midwest basketball-first conference, and the best Midwest basketball-first conference. As far as D-I athletics go, pretty much every school already casts its recruiting nets nationally to a degree and also recruits in areas where its assistants have contacts. Changing conferences has little to no effect on this for any school.

It is true, schools in the Midwest in particular are worried about a population drain in their areas hurting their local recruiting population in the future. But this is felt most at the small college level, where schools are fighting to survive and are battling cheaper Juco options and state schools. And in the case of leagues like the Big 10 claiming they're expanding because of 'demographics'...giant smokescreen. Demographics=the further they expand, the more homes they can get their cable network on basic cable and reap the monies from it. Big 10 schools are national brand names, it doesn't matter if they have a few less recruitables in their backyard, they will always have plenty of kids throwing themselves at them from across the country. The Big 10 never 'needed' to add Rutgers and Maryland. Ohio can slice itself in half in the next 20 years and Ohio State will survive just fine. They 'wanted' to because Delany's goal is to continue growing his TV network.

The main reason for much of the expansion, it doesn't come down to demographics. It comes down to TV contracts for a few. For the rest, it's simple monkey-see, monkey-do. Colleges and conferences see the 'big boys' do it, so they think they need to too. It has trickled right down to the small college level, NCAA II & III and the NAIA, even these schools are all shopping themselves around. It doesn't even have anything to do with TV contracts there, but this is what schools have been conditioned to do-always be on the lookout for what they might think is the slightest bit better and go for it. Much of it is panic and reactionary, and not thinking 20 years down the line. For some it has worked, for others it hasn't, but the failures of some hasn't deterred anyone from thinking 'don't worry, WE'LL be the one to succeed beyond everyone's wildest dreams'.


I think that's a good point to the extent that at the power conference level, demographics and TV contracts go hand-in-hand. Still, even though the MVC doesn't have its own TV network like the Big Ten, it's just a factor that's very glaring for the MVC specifically. Being a Midwest-centric conference has worked for the MVC in the past, but it's up for debate whether that would work in the future. I don't disagree with your rationale regarding with Loyola at all and it gets into what I was saying with the network effects - the Chicago market specifically is where there is more potential value added for the MVC because alums from Illinois State, Bradley, SIU, Drake and UNI already live there in disproportionate numbers compared to, say, Denver or Nashville (which would be adding good-sized markets to the MVC but they don't really tie into a preexisting critical mass of MVC fans). This same type of logic drove the Big Ten's decision to add Rutgers, too. Delany isn't stupid - he knows full well that Rutgers *alone* cannot "deliver" the NYC market. What he's banking on is the local Rutgers presence plus the Penn State/Ohio State/Michigan/other Big Ten alums that all live in the NYC market will be enough to get the Big Ten Network onto basic cable there. The theory is that Rutgers will be the vessel that will enhance the preexisting Big Ten presence in the NYC market. Maybe this will work and maybe it won't (as I have written many times that I'm much more skeptical of this working compared to the Maryland addition, but I understand what the Big Ten is trying to do here. If the bet works, then it has *massive* financial upside. Loyola being the conduit to bring the rest of the MVC into Chicago is a similar way of thinking, albeit on a smaller scale. I don't know if it will work, either, but the potential of massive upside compared to a "safe" addition is sometimes enough to drive decisions, especially when there isn't a clear no-brainer alternative, anyway.
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