MVC Loses 56% of Top-150 RPI Games

[rlh04d]

I want to thank my Shocker friend rlh04d for another opportunity to correct shocking fallacies with facts. You might be surprised to learn that the very first game ever held at CenturyLinkwas not a Creighton game, but an NBA exhibition between the Timberwolves and Hawks. Just as much of an NBA game as the Thunder exhibitions at Intrust.

I can't find any evidence of that ever actually happening. Got a source?

Besides the fact it's hosted the NBA, Creighton fans claim an NBA caliber arena based on this quote from Steward Mandel in Sports Illustrated, 2/20/2006: “Creighton is the league’s crown jewel. It boasts an NBA-caliber arena, the CenturyLink Center Omaha, where the Bluejays average 14,387 fans.”

Touche.

Don't know about recent years

Clearly. Your recruiting might go up with the move to the Big East, but in recent years ours has been better. Particularly with the signing of FVV, one of the highest rated recruits in the Valley in a long time.

ESPN3 isn't TV. It's a webcast. Fox 1 is TV.

WSU/Tennessee ESPN2. WSU/Alabama ESPNU. WSU/Saint Louis CBS Sports. WSU/WKU ESPN2. WSU/(Texas/BYU) ESPN2. All nationally televised. For comparison's sake, Creighton had two nonconference games carried on ESPN networks last year -- both part of the Las Vegas tournament. I believe zero the year before that. Again, zero the year before that.

http://www.gocreighton.com/SportSelect. ... EASON=2012

If the point is "Creighton's rented NBA caliber arena draws recruits and national TV," wouldn't you actually have some evidence of Creighton being on TV more than other MVC programs while in the MVC, and drawing better recruits than other MVC programs, because of the addition of that arena? Whereas actual evidence shows no increase in recruiting or television access relative to programs that don't have "NBA-caliber arenas." This year, yes, your recruiting will probably increase, and your television access will absolutely increase, but the Big East is the draw, not you or CenturyLink.

The rodeo's always in September. We did get booted for the US Figure Skating Championships last January, though. Caused a 3-game road trip. We do lose revenue on rent, but more than make it up on the new TV contract.

You certainly do. Doesn't change the fact that losing revenue on your arena situation is a negative. As is not controlling when you can play games.

Stepping outside of the pointless trolling and baiting here, obviously CenturyLink is a good arena. But pretending like playing in an "NBA caliber" off campus arena doesn't have drawbacks is absurd. If there weren't, we'd just be playing our games at Intrust. You've lost control, money, and a home court advantage. The tradeoff is that you've been able to pack tons of people into the arena. Which is awesome as long as you can fill it. Should the time come when you can't, though, that arena is going to become an albatross fast.

[JayPak]

I want to thank my Shocker friend rlh04d for another opportunity to correct shocking fallacies with facts. You might be surprised to learn that the very first game ever held at CenturyLinkwas not a Creighton game, but an NBA exhibition between the Timberwolves and Hawks. Just as much of an NBA game as the Thunder exhibitions at Intrust.

I can't find any evidence of that ever actually happening. Got a source?

Fair enough! From the NBA website, http://www.nba.com/schedules/preseason_030807.html. Scroll down to October 13. At that time, naming rights hadn't been announced publicly, so the CenturyLink/Qwest was still known as Omaha Convention Center.

ESPN3 isn't TV. It's a webcast. Fox 1 is TV.

WSU/Tennessee ESPN2. WSU/Alabama ESPNU. WSU/Saint Louis CBS Sports. WSU/WKU ESPN2. WSU/(Texas/BYU) ESPN2. All nationally televised. For comparison's sake, Creighton had two nonconference games carried on ESPN networks last year -- both part of the Las Vegas tournament. I believe zero the year before that. Again, zero the year before that.

http://www.gocreighton.com/SportSelect. ... EASON=2012

Gotta correct you again... 3 OOC games on ESPN (not counting ESPN3) last year (ASU, Wisky, St. Mary's), 1 the year before (Long Beach), and you were correct on 0 the year before that. If you're going to count CBS Sports for WSU, then you need to count CU's games in prior years on networks like Pac-12, B1G, NET, etc. Moreover, the lack of ESPN games is more an indictment of the Valley's poor TV contract than a statement on Creighton. WSU had to go to the Final Four to get the ESPN they did this year, and they still had to play at midnight to get one of them. It's tough to be a major in a mid-major conference, whether you're Creighton or Wichita.

This year, yes, your recruiting will probably increase, and your television access will absolutely increase, but the Big East is the draw, not you or CenturyLink.

Of course, CU wouldn't have been invited to the Big East without CenturyLink and 17K+ butts in seats.

Stepping outside of the pointless trolling and baiting here, obviously CenturyLink is a good arena. But pretending like playing in an "NBA caliber" off campus arena doesn't have drawbacks is absurd. If there weren't, we'd just be playing our games at Intrust. You've lost control, money, and a home court advantage. The tradeoff is that you've been able to pack tons of people into the arena. Which is awesome as long as you can fill it. Should the time come when you can't, though, that arena is going to become an albatross fast.

Agreed. As to the albatross statement, see Nebraska-Omaha hockey for an example of just that. And now they're building a smaller on-campus arena. Don't see Creighton having the same problem, though. Admittedly there's some risk to realignment, but just like moving to CenturyLink in the first place, the reward should outweigh the risk.

[Cdizzle]

WSU had to go to the Final Four to get the ESPN they did this year, and they still had to play at midnight to get one of them. It's tough to be a major in a mid-major conference, whether you're Creighton or Wichita.

So you're saying WSU actually has ESPN coming to broadcast their games because they are WSU, not because they are in a good conference? Yeah, I'll take that.

Face it, WSU put on their big-boy pants, went to work, brought home the bacon, and now they get to sit down and eat. Creighton moved over to one of the head tables, but still has to crawl around on the ground for scraps. The scraps are better at that table, for sure, but there's something to be said for earning your meal and sitting in a chair to eat it. Kinda goes back to the root of the WSU/CU issue. CU wants respect because they think they are entitled to it. WSU wants respect so they earned it.

[CaseyGarrisonforPrez]

Face it, WSU put on their big-boy pants, went to work, brought home the bacon, and now they get to sit down and eat. Creighton moved over to one of the head tables, but still has to crawl around on the ground for scraps. The scraps are better at that table, for sure, but there's something to be said for earning your meal and sitting in a chair to eat it. Kinda goes back to the root of the WSU/CU issue. CU wants respect because they think they are entitled to it. WSU wants respect so they earned it.

I kind of like this analogy. It's like we are all eating at Denny's and Gregg Marshall is at the head of the table and then Greg McDermott and DoubleJay Alum are at Morton's but they only get like 6 hour old sirloin and they have to eat it in the kitchen or something. The analogy works.

Now if you will excuse me I got to go to Denny's. Anybody know if they serve the Grand Slam things all day?

[RoyalShock]

This discussion comes up every year, sometimes more than once in a year, and I always have to laugh at what college-educated adults will get into pissing matches over.

Why is it so hard to give props to CU for taking advantage of Cornhuscker ineptitude and capturing a large enough chunk of their fanbase that they had to move games to a 17000 seat arena, most of which they fill? WSU fans worry about selling 14000 tickets to one game a year. We don't have a lot of room to talk on this issue. Granted, we haven't had the luxury of an apathetic fanbase from the large state schools, either.

Oh, and then we're going to aplit hairs over the definition of "NBA-caliber" arena? C'mon, rlh04d, you can't, with intellectual honesty, claim Omaha's arena isn't NBA-caliber and Wichita's is just becase Wichita happens to be in close proximity to an NBA franchise city and Omaha isn't. If you add another 100 miles of distance between OKC and Wichita, Intrust wouldn't be considered NBA-caliber by your standards.

Some recruits like playing in large downtown arenas. Even Gregg Marshall uses our one game at Intrust as a selling point with recruits. Some are going to love the idea playing in a packed, loud, moderately-sized arena on campus. Unless all recruits are alike, one is not inherently better than the other. Both have their selling points.

And so that this doesn't feel too much like a "can't we all just get along" post, who would want to play in front of an arena full of decibel-challenged, red underwear wearing socialites? At a school that is a couple of losing seasons (and a couple of winning NU seasons) away from being DePaul?

[AngryShock]

And so that this doesn't feel too much like a "can't we all just get along" post, who would want to play in front of an arena full of decibel-challenged, red underwear wearing socialites? At a school that is a couple of losing seasons (and a couple of winning NU seasons) away from being DePaul?

Nice save

[rlh04d]

Oh, and then we're going to aplit hairs over the definition of "NBA-caliber" arena? C'mon, rlh04d, you can't, with intellectual honesty, claim Omaha's arena isn't NBA-caliber and Wichita's is just becase Wichita happens to be in close proximity to an NBA franchise city and Omaha isn't. If you add another 100 miles of distance between OKC and Wichita, Intrust wouldn't be considered NBA-caliber by your standards.

You missed later on when I said I was pointlessly trolling them

Stepping outside of the pointless trolling and baiting here, obviously CenturyLink is a good arena. But pretending like playing in an "NBA caliber" off campus arena doesn't have drawbacks is absurd. If there weren't, we'd just be playing our games at Intrust. You've lost control, money, and a home court advantage. The tradeoff is that you've been able to pack tons of people into the arena. Which is awesome as long as you can fill it. Should the time come when you can't, though, that arena is going to become an albatross fast.

They pretty clearly asked for a response to the initial post bragging about the arena, so I went nit-picky on responding to it.

[rlh04d]

At that time, naming rights hadn't been announced publicly, so the CenturyLink/Qwest was still known as Omaha Convention Center.

That explains why I couldn't find it Thanks.

Gotta correct you again... 3 OOC games on ESPN (not counting ESPN3) last year (ASU, Wisky, St. Mary's), 1 the year before (Long Beach), and you were correct on 0 the year before that.

Whoops -- forgot the BracketBuster games. ASU/Wisky were both aired on ESPN as part of the Las Vegas tournament.

If you're going to count CBS Sports for WSU, then you need to count CU's games in prior years on networks like Pac-12, B1G, NET, etc.

I have CBS Sports as part of my basic digital TV package, and not any of those others. That's the only reason I counted CBS Sports.

Moreover, the lack of ESPN games is more an indictment of the Valley's poor TV contract than a statement on Creighton. WSU had to go to the Final Four to get the ESPN they did this year, and they still had to play at midnight to get one of them. It's tough to be a major in a mid-major conference, whether you're Creighton or Wichita.

Well, the contract is terrible, but I think as Creighton and WSU have both shown in recent years, if there's a reason for ESPN to show a Valley team (McDermott as POY candidate, WSU off Final Four) we will get on TV. How often ESPN carries Valley teams is indicative of the level of national interest in Valley teams (and their opponents, obviously).

Of course, CU wouldn't have been invited to the Big East without CenturyLink and 17K+ butts in seats.

Really? I'd think Creighton's decade plus of high level basketball and national visibility played a larger role in it. If WSU was similar to Creighton in terms of being an "institutional fit" with the other Big Priest schools, I would be pretty confident about WSU going to the Big East, 17k butts in seats or not. I really don't think Creighton's 17k crowds bring that much to the Big East, other than maybe a "big league feel" on TV.

Agreed. As to the albatross statement, see Nebraska-Omaha hockey for an example of just that. And now they're building a smaller on-campus arena. Don't see Creighton having the same problem, though. Admittedly there's some risk to realignment, but just like moving to CenturyLink in the first place, the reward should outweigh the risk.

I don't think there's that much risk to the conference realignment -- I think it's going to be great for Creighton. But should Creighton struggle in the post-McDermott era in the Big East, and Nebraska improved, I could see CenturyLink emptying out fast. Simply put, Creighton with about 4k students at any one time isn't filling that arena with 17k+ alumni every week, so you're relying on fans without any real attachment to the university.

[JaysFinal4]

Face it, WSU put on their big-boy pants, went to work, brought home the bacon, and now they get to sit down and eat. Creighton moved over to one of the head tables, but still has to crawl around on the ground for scraps. The scraps are better at that table, for sure, but there's something to be said for earning your meal and sitting in a chair to eat it. Kinda goes back to the root of the WSU/CU issue. CU wants respect because they think they are entitled to it. WSU wants respect so they earned it.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. You don't get respect from going to 1 Final Four. You earn respect from building a PROGRAM OVER TIME. Creighton has done that, hence their invite to the "big boy table". WSU might be doing that, we'll see. Right now, you're still at the "kids table" whether you realize it or not.

Ask George Mason how much "respect" they get from their Final Four run. At least they still got that fancy banner.

[LanceShock]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. You don't get respect from going to 1 Final Four. You earn respect from building a PROGRAM OVER TIME. Creighton has done that, hence their invite to the "big boy table". WSU might be doing that, we'll see. Right now, you're still at the "kids table" whether you realize it or not.

Ask George Mason how much "respect" they get from their Final Four run. At least they still got that fancy banner.

The reason CU got the invite over WSU is not because of CU being a more successful program, it is because CU is a private Catholic institution with a decent basketball program. I think you overstate how impressed people are outside the Valley of winning Arch Madness.

CU is a good program, but that is not why they are at the "big boy" table. It is because some of the other "big boys" needed some more private institutions (preferably Catholic) to get a big contract from Fox. Otherwise, you would be as stuck as we are at the "kids table".