WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby pafan » February 16th, 2014, 9:26 pm

rlh04d wrote:I know that's what will happen. I just don't understand why. Evansville looks like they could be a dangerous team if they played without gimmicks.


If you asked coach Simmons this to his face he would probably look at you like a puppy when you move to a new house.

What gimmick?

For what its worth, here's what he told the Courier & Press on Friday about WSU:
You have to really work, keep getting ball reversals, keep cuttting, keep screening and compliment it with driving the basketball.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby uniftw » February 16th, 2014, 9:34 pm

pafan wrote:
rlh04d wrote:I know that's what will happen. I just don't understand why. Evansville looks like they could be a dangerous team if they played without gimmicks.


If you asked coach Simmons this to his face he would probably look at you like a puppy when you move to a new house.

What gimmick?

For what its worth, here's what he told the Courier & Press on Friday about WSU:
You have to really work, keep getting ball reversals, keep cuttting, keep screening and compliment it with driving the basketball.
Gimmick may not have been the right word.

What was attempted to be said - correct me if I'm wrong rlh - is that Evansville seems to have some decent players that could come together and be a team that isn't...well....what Evansville typically puts out if Marty was willing to let them play as a team and properly use the entire team. He INSISTS on using one player, and one player only, to score. The entire offense is run the living s*** out of that one player for 39 minutes per game off of screens and hope he hits a high % of shots.

Do you know how dangerous DJ could be, and Colt could have been, had Marty allowed other players on the team an opportunity to develop and become a threat on offense?

I'll go back and find my post from about 2 weeks ago on this topic but it's scary how easily UE could go from a 4th or 5th place team in their best seasons to a top 2 pr 3 team with a couple minor adjustments that Marty is completely unwilling to make.

One guy taking 35% of your teams shots isn't going to create a winner at any level (other than JV and small HS).

DJ and Colt have combined to take roughly 35-38% (complete guess but I can easily get the actual total) of UEs shots since Colt's freshman year. It gets them GREAT numbers but it doesn't really translate to wins, post season success, or a post season tournament that is worth playing in other than extra practice time - which Marty doesn't use for anything other than trying to find more ways to run one guy off of ball screens for 20 seconds per possession and have him force a shot up.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby pafan » February 16th, 2014, 9:41 pm

Play Angry wrote:I was surprised that ESPN's box score shows the attendance was only 8,802 for this one- it looked like almost everything was gobbled up on ticketmaster. Does UE not use the full 10,000 seat capacity for hoops? By that, I mean is that capacity only for concerts, etc.


The Ford Center capacity for hoops is reported at 10k. The largest Aces crowd ever at Ford Center was 9640.

Keep in mind, all UE figures going back several years are tickets scanned, so it isn't clear what constitutes a sellout, because every sellout is a different number.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby musiccitybulldog » February 16th, 2014, 9:51 pm

Gimmick or not it worked for about 36 minutes. A shot falls for Eville or a different call with about 4 minutes left...and who knows. Seems Eville was down 4 and threw an inbounds pass out of bounds and then things went down hill. But it was a great game I thought.

The Big guy impressed me and Simmons did as well.

It was steal city for WSU, I wonder how many points off steals alone?
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby Wufan » February 16th, 2014, 9:56 pm

musiccitybulldog wrote:Gimmick or not it worked for about 36 minutes. A shot falls for Eville or a different call with about 4 minutes left...and who knows. Seems Eville was down 4 and threw an inbounds pass out of bounds and then things went down hill. But it was a great game I thought.

The Big guy impressed me and Simmons did as well.

It was steal city for WSU, I wonder how many points off steals alone?


I heard 23 points off turn overs. There were 14 steals and 18 total TOs.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby Ricardo del Rio » February 16th, 2014, 10:04 pm

Player Simmons can shoot pretty well, I think. I have only seen him in two games, but he shot well in both.

Simmons' defense is just plain awful. He cannot stay with anyone and I am not exaggerating. Baker was guilty of a crime in the way he used up Simmons in Wichita and Evansville.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby rlh04d » February 17th, 2014, 1:43 am

pafan wrote:
rlh04d wrote:I know that's what will happen. I just don't understand why. Evansville looks like they could be a dangerous team if they played without gimmicks.


If you asked coach Simmons this to his face he would probably look at you like a puppy when you move to a new house.

What gimmick?

For what its worth, here's what he told the Courier & Press on Friday about WSU:
You have to really work, keep getting ball reversals, keep cuttting, keep screening and compliment it with driving the basketball.

I look at "gimmicks" in sports as being something outside of the norm that are, for the most part, effective because they're rare. And are used for the most part because the coach believes they have to rely on something out of the ordinary to have an attempt at winning.

Evansville plays a very different brand of basketball than most teams. I think it's more effective because of the rarity with which it's used.

In college football, I think of the triple option the same way. The triple option wouldn't be very effective if more teams were using it. It mostly relies on a team not seeing it before that season, and then not having much time to prepare for it.

In baseball, I consider the knuckleball to be a bit of a gimmick.

There's a reason the triple option offense in college football is a preferred method of play for the service academies. There's a reason why 40-year-old pitchers are able to be effective when they rely on the knuckleball. And there's a reason why Evansville relies on setting endless screens for one effective scorer. They're effective because they're different, and they're used because the people using it believe they can't be effective with a more standard method.

You can be successful with what I consider gimmicks, to a degree. Evansville can upset Wichita State twice in the same season they go to the Final Four. Georgia Tech won an ACC Championship once using the triple option. RA Dickey won a Cy Young with the knuckleball in 2012.

But knuckleballers aren't generally the lead guy in the rotation, and there's a reason Dickey was nearly 40 before he had his one great year. There's a reason why service academies don't win national championships, and why Georgia Tech's record is abysmal when teams have longer than a week to prep for their offense. And there's a reason why Evansville likely won't ever compete for a Valley championship, despite continuously having the league's leading scorer. There's a reason that power pitchers dominate major league lineups, and why the teams that win college football and basketball championships are generally built along established blueprints (generally pro-style teams with talented offensive/defensive lines in football, teams that are effective on both offense and defense with talented PGs in basketball, both able to play multiple styles effectively).

Gimmicks are effective. But you're usually establishing a ceiling on your success in utilizing them.

I'll eat crow if DJ and Simmons prove me wrong next year, but I firmly believe Evansville would be a more effective team if they concentrated on a more equal distribution of the ball and an inside-out offensive style utilizing Mock more than this same tired style of running endless screens to break one player open. Evansville has been tremendously lucky in the last few years by keeping their one offensive threat healthy. Evansville is always one injury away from a completely ruined season. That's not how good teams are built.

WSU might lose a game to Evansville sometimes, but no one will ever deny that WSU is the better team. And there's a reason why WSU could lose any player on the team and still be a good team. Postseason success would be limited by losing a Baker, or Early, or Van Vleet, or Cotton, but without any one of those players, that's still an NCAA tournament team. If Evansville loses Balentine early next season, they probably won't win more than 10 games.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby purple&orange » February 17th, 2014, 3:47 am

The turnovers, especially the live ball steals that led to run-outs doomed Evansville today. It was going to take a near perfect effort to beat WSU today and with that many turnovers it was going to be incredibly difficult. The two empty possessions down 5 with 6 minutes left was sort of the final straw for me as far as if Evansville could pull it off. I thought UE played well, I also thought Wichita played pretty well too and absorbed a really good effort from UE.

The interchangeable parts and depth are what make Wichita special. When subs are made it doesn't really matter which 5 are on the floor, they play very well together. You can see how much they enjoy playing with and for one another. They have a lot of talent and they get just about all they can out of it and it allows them to matchup with anyone in the country. For better or worse this group will be evaluated by what they do in March where one game can get you any sort of label, good or bad. What they are doing is impressive.

The Valley may be down a bit this year and cast aside by some nationally, but it's a basketball league first and foremost and I do believe that Wichita is well prepared by taking the best shots from teams throughout the Valley in front of the best crowds the home team will have all season. I see what Creighton is doing and they're very similar to what they were last year and they seem to be doing quite well in the new Big East which to me at least puts the whole "They'd be a mid level team in Conference X" arguement to bed. Wichita can play with anyone in the country and I hope they do once again this season.

Wichita is a really fun group to watch because of the way they play. You have to beat Wichita, they probably won't beat themselves which is why I think they can win any single game they play against anyone in the country. They'll have to play well to do so, any team in the country will, but I believe they have proven that they are more than capable. Best of luck with that, it was a fun ride last season and would love to see it happen again because it's great for the league.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby moshock » February 17th, 2014, 8:32 am

purple&orange wrote:The turnovers, especially the live ball steals that led to run-outs doomed Evansville today. It was going to take a near perfect effort to beat WSU today and with that many turnovers it was going to be incredibly difficult. The two empty possessions down 5 with 6 minutes left was sort of the final straw for me as far as if Evansville could pull it off. I thought UE played well, I also thought Wichita played pretty well too and absorbed a really good effort from UE.

The interchangeable parts and depth are what make Wichita special. When subs are made it doesn't really matter which 5 are on the floor, they play very well together. You can see how much they enjoy playing with and for one another. They have a lot of talent and they get just about all they can out of it and it allows them to matchup with anyone in the country. For better or worse this group will be evaluated by what they do in March where one game can get you any sort of label, good or bad. What they are doing is impressive.

The Valley may be down a bit this year and cast aside by some nationally, but it's a basketball league first and foremost and I do believe that Wichita is well prepared by taking the best shots from teams throughout the Valley in front of the best crowds the home team will have all season. I see what Creighton is doing and they're very similar to what they were last year and they seem to be doing quite well in the new Big East which to me at least puts the whole "They'd be a mid level team in Conference X" arguement to bed. Wichita can play with anyone in the country and I hope they do once again this season.

Wichita is a really fun group to watch because of the way they play. You have to beat Wichita, they probably won't beat themselves which is why I think they can win any single game they play against anyone in the country. They'll have to play well to do so, any team in the country will, but I believe they have proven that they are more than capable. Best of luck with that, it was a fun ride last season and would love to see it happen again because it's great for the league.


Nice post :Cheers:

Evansville will be a load next season. If they add a little depth at the post - look out.
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Re: WSU v. Evansville 2-16-14

Postby shockem » February 17th, 2014, 9:18 am

Going back to the post about the "gimmick" offense. I would think this type of offense would severly affect Simmons' ability to recruit. It's not that difficult to see that you're either the guy (Colt or DJ) that gets to the shoot the ball, or you're one of the filler positions on the court. Who would want to play in a system like that? At WSU, every player on the court knows that they have the green light and the plays are designed so that the points can come from any one of the 5 guys (interchangeable). I think Simmon's has a nice post player in Mock, but he's going to have to change his entire mindset if he really wanst to elevate the program.
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