Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Discuss the MVC hoops season here.

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby Snaggletooth » March 5th, 2014, 7:22 am

m-v-c wrote:After all the destruction conference realignment has done to college sports, just don't understand why so many always want to talk about this topic.


Grass is greener on the other side of the fence mentality. WSU is not leaving the valley anytime soon - there is just vocal minority. Mvc is a good fit for WSU geographically and for being competitive in all sports.

Now if WSU fans supported the women's bball and vball like they supported men's basketball, the financial strength of the athletic department would be in a much better position to support the move up in the required investments they will need to stay competitive in the new conference.
Snaggletooth
MVC Hall Of Famer
MVC Hall Of Famer
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: August 10th, 2010, 9:46 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby RoyalShock » March 5th, 2014, 8:18 am

Snaggletooth wrote:
m-v-c wrote:After all the destruction conference realignment has done to college sports, just don't understand why so many always want to talk about this topic.


Grass is greener on the other side of the fence mentality. WSU is not leaving the valley anytime soon - there is just vocal minority. Mvc is a good fit for WSU geographically and for being competitive in all sports.

Now if WSU fans supported the women's bball and vball like they supported men's basketball, the financial strength of the athletic department would be in a much better position to support the move up in the required investments they will need to stay competitive in the new conference.


I'm not sure the volleyball example supports your point. WSU's vball attendance has been in the top 10 for nearly a decade. I'd be surprised if WSU's combined volleyball, baseball and women's basketball attendance didn't exceed that of just about any school in the AAC, MWC and A-10 plus many others in the power conferences, for those same sports.
User avatar
RoyalShock
MVCfans.com
MVCfans.com
 
Posts: 579
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 12:22 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby CBB_Fan » March 5th, 2014, 10:13 am

RoyalShock wrote:
Snaggletooth wrote:
m-v-c wrote:After all the destruction conference realignment has done to college sports, just don't understand why so many always want to talk about this topic.


Grass is greener on the other side of the fence mentality. WSU is not leaving the valley anytime soon - there is just vocal minority. Mvc is a good fit for WSU geographically and for being competitive in all sports.

Now if WSU fans supported the women's bball and vball like they supported men's basketball, the financial strength of the athletic department would be in a much better position to support the move up in the required investments they will need to stay competitive in the new conference.


I'm not sure the volleyball example supports your point. WSU's vball attendance has been in the top 10 for nearly a decade. I'd be surprised if WSU's combined volleyball, baseball and women's basketball attendance didn't exceed that of just about any school in the AAC, MWC and A-10 plus many others in the power conferences, for those same sports.


We are also coming off a dominant All-Sports performance last year; if anything we were more dominant against the Valley in our other sports than we were in men's basketball last year. While we probably wouldn't be a top team in a conference like the SEC or PAC-12, we'd certainly be one of better teams in any of the A10, AAC, or MWC.

For what it is worth, I'm hearing a lot more talk from the MWC than the AAC even though geographically and historically we have more connection with the American. It seems like the separation from the Catholic schools left a sour taste in the mouths of the football fans in the AAC, which see basketball only schools as a source of instability (though some would argue football caused the divide). This talk may not extend to the presidents, but fans from East Carolina, USF, and UCF seem to prefer a football-dominant conference.

The other problem for both conferences is that they have geographic analogues to Wichita State. VCU and Gonzaga make the case for Wichita State complicated, Gonzaga slightly less than VCU because they seem relatively content in the WCC. Both the AAC and MWC seem split geographically: the western members of the MWC would vastly prefer to do nothing or add Gonzaga, the eastern members of the AAC would prefer to stay on the east coast.

But what little I hear from either conference says that the fans that care about sports like women's basketball, volleyball, and baseball are more in favor of Wichita State than the average fan even though these sports are more of a travel problem.
CBB_Fan
MVC starter
MVC starter
 
Posts: 361
Joined: July 10th, 2012, 9:10 am

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby Mikovio » March 5th, 2014, 10:30 am

MissouriValleyUnite wrote:As for Northern Illinois' prospects of going to the American -- because the incentive of needing to keep the Chicago market is only what would pique the MAC's interest in Illinois State, IMO -- are very slim. Northern Illinois has the 2nd lowest endowment in the MAC, just a sliver above Eastern Michigan. That's an important number to the AAC (look up the endowments of recent adds compared to N Illinois). Northern Illinois' infrastructure is nowhere near those of the AAC's. You can only enter DeKalb on a two land road with potholes, and the nearest exits are several miles off (13 to the west, 10-12 to the east).

Buffalo + the Ohio 6 are not interested in permanently expanding west of Chicago. They'd be willing to go south for proven successful FBS programs like Western Kentucky (now off the board), Middle Tennessee (now off the board), and Arkansas State (Plan B/C for the Red Wolves), but that's it. Otherwise, the MAC's vying for Eastern exposure/recruiting when it comes to successful FCS programs. That's why James Madison has an offer to join (the Dukes are weighing their MAC offer with their Sun Belt offer -- we should hear for sure this calendar year). If JMU joins the MAC, that's when we watch Missouri State's bid for the Sun Belt's final spot (regardless if most deem that as poor direction). Also, recall that very recent provisions deincentivize G5 conferences from expanding beyond 12, so the balance of call-up slots is likely just 1, maybe 2, for the foreseeable future.

Northern Illinois' success is predicated on hitting the IL/WI/MN/IA/NE/KS recruits the B1G/BXII miss out on -- they're the closest (and best non-BCS school) for many of those kids. That situation is exactly why the Huskies clinched an Orange Bowl berth and flirted with the Fiesta Bowl. Northern Illinois is fully aware that allowing Northern Iowa and/or Illinois State into the MAC cuts into that vast recruiting market and could be a killer. So Buffalo + the Ohio 6 + Northern Illinois have incentive not to add UNI or ISU. That leaves the 3 Michigans, who almost always votes with NIllinois anyway, and then Balls Tate.

As for the "Dakotas would never join the MVC due to their cozy Sioux Falls tourney" sentiment a few pages back, NDSU & SDSU allegedly sent feelers out to Wichita + the MVFC schools just last year. The Sioux Falls tourney is beneficial to the Jackrabbits' revenues, but they barely affect NDSU's, who's the far more attractive prospect of the duo anyway. NDSU isn't stupid -- they know while the Summit's an underrated league, it's on thin ice. It's not the ideal geographical league for Fort Wayne, IUPUI, or WIU. Denver's endowment is attractive and they're the favorite for the WCC's next add if it expands again. Oral Roberts is always a flight risk. If NDSU/SDSU were offered, you bet they'd take it to ensure survival.

That said, I have no interest in SDSU, and only NDSU if the MVC loses more than 2. Give me Belmont and/or Oral Roberts first (assuming SLU/UD/NMSU would reject or not carry the votes) and that's only if the MVC is poached again.

The MVC is fine if Evansville, Indiana State, and Missouri State have administrations who realize their Basketball programs are the best avenue to market their academics. Each school had success with it at some point in the past, but recent damage was inflicted. Southern Illinois is trying, but Lowery set them back a decade, which few could have predicted. Illinois State & Loyola are also trying, the latter will get there the sooner they replace Moser. Bradley will be back eventually, UNI is low on financials but committed, Drake will improve. Missouri State's administration worries me, and I suspect the President is blatantly trying to morph it into a Football school.

If certain schools don't get their act together, don't be surprised if vultures like the A-10 circle us and at least try to do what they want with us. If Presidents get their act together, at least the MVC will have more control of its own fate.


I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to chime in on Northern Illinois. The endowment is indeed low but DeKalb is in the Chicago metro area, which has value to the AAC or any conference trying to put together a TV package or even network. As for pothole filled dirt roads, I-88 (ie the Reagan Expressway) runs from Chicago right by DeKalb-- you can get off just a couple miles south of the town. Yes western Midwest recruiting has been key in the trenches, but their success has more to do with recruiting speed for the skill positions in Florida and Alabama, begun by former SIU coach Jerry Kill (now at Minnesota). The idea is 3 stars in Florida, and sometimes even the 2 stars, are better than 4 stars in Illinois. Infrastructure is actually pretty good, with a new full size IPF to go along with a fairly new weight room and football office building. NIU needs to get its attendance up and expand its 24k stadium though before they can expect a bid. And yes, my understanding is so long as NIU is in the MAC, they're opposed to westward expansion, so ISU/MSU/UNI shouldn't expect a phone call any time soon.

I wouldn't rule out the MAC declining to renew their agreement with UMass and standing pat at 12, either if JMU declines or they just decide to withdraw their offer. UMass was added when Temple was still in the MAC, but now with Temple gone you have UMass (one of the worst IA programs) on an island. The MAC has to make a decision in the next year I believe.
User avatar
Mikovio
All MVC
All MVC
 
Posts: 828
Joined: July 9th, 2011, 7:10 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby Snaggletooth » March 5th, 2014, 11:44 am

RoyalShock wrote:
Snaggletooth wrote:
m-v-c wrote:After all the destruction conference realignment has done to college sports, just don't understand why so many always want to talk about this topic.


Grass is greener on the other side of the fence mentality. WSU is not leaving the valley anytime soon - there is just vocal minority. Mvc is a good fit for WSU geographically and for being competitive in all sports.

Now if WSU fans supported the women's bball and vball like they supported men's basketball, the financial strength of the athletic department would be in a much better position to support the move up in the required investments they will need to stay competitive in the new conference.


I'm not sure the volleyball example supports your point. WSU's vball attendance has been in the top 10 for nearly a decade. I'd be surprised if WSU's combined volleyball, baseball and women's basketball attendance didn't exceed that of just about any school in the AAC, MWC and A-10 plus many others in the power conferences, for those same sports.


I'm not saying they are not well attended compared to other schools, I'm just saying that if attended as well (or half as well) there would be a significant increase in revenue stream that would allow more money to be budgeted in the athletic department.

If WSU would jump to a "higher" conference, WSU would need increase it budget and make improvements to keep up in facilities (or stay even) and retain/hire top coaching staffs. Where is that money going to come from?

MBB is tapped out versus capacity unless you either move to intrust or increase SASO and ticket prices. Where is see WSU having potential for revenue growth would be WBB, baseball and VBALL.

In Vball WSU average 2,899 in 2012 (Ranked 7th). Best was Hawaii at 6,675 and in the Top 5 was 3,252 to 5,000. There is at least 30% potential growth there - but you have to have plan.

In Basketball (women) WSU had an average of 2,241.

Top 5 - 8,900 to 11,400
Top 10 - 6,300 to 8,900
Top 15 - 5,400 to 6,300
Top 20 - 4,200 to 5,400
Top 25 - 4,000 to 4,200
Top 50 - 2,500 to 4,000

Seems like there is huge potential for growth.

I also think that if WSU is going to step to higher level, then the fan support has to be there to step up across the board. In fact it would probably help WSU case if that had a plan to grow the fans for these sports attendance.
Snaggletooth
MVC Hall Of Famer
MVC Hall Of Famer
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: August 10th, 2010, 9:46 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby CBB_Fan » March 5th, 2014, 12:05 pm

Snaggletooth wrote:I'm not saying they are not well attended compared to other schools, I'm just saying that if attended as well (or half as well) there would be a significant increase in revenue stream that would allow more money to be budgeted in the athletic department.

If WSU would jump to a "higher" conference, WSU would need increase it budget and make improvements to keep up in facilities (or stay even) and retain/hire top coaching staffs. Where is that money going to come from?

MBB is tapped out versus capacity unless you either move to intrust or increase SASO and ticket prices. Where is see WSU having potential for revenue growth would be WBB, baseball and VBALL.


Hopefully a combination of increased ticket prices in men's basketball ($10 per ticket = $100,000), TV revenues (~$300,000) and NCAA units ($250,000 per unit divided among conference) would more than offset increased costs in Olympic sports. The biggest gains would probably come from the NCAA units, as Wichita State would get a small portion of any TV deal as a non-football school and ticket prices can only be increased so far. I haven't calculated it out, but I wouldn't be surprised if the MWC and AAC have somewhere between 30-40 units worth most years, which would give Wichita State around $700,000.

Additionally, a move to a a new conference would likely see increased donations and raise the school's profile to prospective students. If I remember right, current student fees are around $400 a student, and the school wishes to increase its student body by around 5,000 students ($2,000,000). I wouldn't be surprised if the total revenue boost is over $4 million a year even without a lucrative TV deal like the Big East.
CBB_Fan
MVC starter
MVC starter
 
Posts: 361
Joined: July 10th, 2012, 9:10 am

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby Mikovio » March 5th, 2014, 3:53 pm

Your numbers check out, but let me play devil's advocate. With the AAC, Louisville and Rutgers are out the door next year and Cincinnati and UConn are desperate for a way out and may join the Big XII soon. They'll take their TV units with them. Then the AAC looks like:

Temple
SMU
South Florida
Memphis
Houston
Central Florida
Tulane
Tulsa
East Carolina

Only Temple or Memphis are traditionally any good at basketball (Tulsa if you reach back to the 90s, and Houston to the 80s), and Temple's athletic department is a dumpster fire right now-- they're slashing sports left and right to pay for the AAC move and getting bashed in Philly media for it-- and their record is currently 8-21. Those TV units dry up and you're left with flying the golf teams out to East Carolina and Central Florida, paying out of pocket. I'm not saying the risk outweighs the reward, but it deserves mention.
User avatar
Mikovio
All MVC
All MVC
 
Posts: 828
Joined: July 9th, 2011, 7:10 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby shocktheheart » March 5th, 2014, 4:11 pm

Mikovio wrote:Your numbers check out, but let me play devil's advocate. With the AAC, Louisville and Rutgers are out the door next year and Cincinnati and UConn are desperate for a way out and may join the Big XII soon. They'll take their TV units with them. Then the AAC looks like:

Temple
SMU
South Florida
Memphis
Houston
Central Florida
Tulane
Tulsa
East Carolina

Only Temple or Memphis are traditionally any good at basketball (Tulsa if you reach back to the 90s, and Houston to the 80s), and Temple's athletic department is a dumpster fire right now-- they're slashing sports left and right to pay for the AAC move and getting bashed in Philly media for it-- and their record is currently 8-21. Those TV units dry up and you're left with flying the golf teams out to East Carolina and Central Florida, paying out of pocket. I'm not saying the risk outweighs the reward, but it deserves mention.


I think I'm right on this, but Cross Country, Track, Golf, and maybe Tennis? only see the other teams in their conference at the conference meet. Only sports teams that WSU carries that would have to travel to the other conference foes would be basketball, volleyball, softball, and baseball. It is not like WSU is exactly close to other Valley members now, so how much more cost would it actually be?
“I’m gonna punch you in the ovary, that’s what I’m gonna do. A straight shot, right to the babymaker.”
User avatar
shocktheheart
MVC Hall Of Famer
MVC Hall Of Famer
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 24th, 2010, 1:43 pm
Location: Wichita

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby Mikovio » March 5th, 2014, 4:33 pm

You may be right, in that it may only be one big trip per year for those several Olympic sports. Does Wichita already fly and board overnight for mens and womens basketball, volleyball, baseball and softball trips to Iowa, Illinois and Indiana?

2008 travel expenses for FBS schools:

http://espn.go.com/ncaa/revenue/_/type/expenses/

I don't know how much of that is for football though. I imagine most of those teams get chartered flights, but then again it's only 6 or so away games for a typical school on there, and some of the best ones only schedule 4 because they fill out their noncon with cupcakes. I'm not aware of any detailed breakdown of an athletic department's expenses.
Last edited by Mikovio on March 5th, 2014, 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mikovio
All MVC
All MVC
 
Posts: 828
Joined: July 9th, 2011, 7:10 pm

Re: Article: A10 should look at adding Wichita St

Postby CBB_Fan » March 5th, 2014, 4:38 pm

Mikovio wrote:Your numbers check out, but let me play devil's advocate. With the AAC, Louisville and Rutgers are out the door next year and Cincinnati and UConn are desperate for a way out and may join the Big XII soon. They'll take their TV units with them. Then the AAC looks like:

Temple
SMU
South Florida
Memphis
Houston
Central Florida
Tulane
Tulsa
East Carolina

Only Temple or Memphis are traditionally any good at basketball (Tulsa if you reach back to the 90s, and Houston to the 80s), and Temple's athletic department is a dumpster fire right now-- they're slashing sports left and right to pay for the AAC move and getting bashed in Philly media for it-- and their record is currently 8-21. Those TV units dry up and you're left with flying the golf teams out to East Carolina and Central Florida, paying out of pocket. I'm not saying the risk outweighs the reward, but it deserves mention.


To get a good idea of the risks involved, follow the money. Here are the basketball expenses for each team in each conference:

AAC:
Memphis: $8.5 million
Connecticut: $7.3 million
SMU: $6.6 million
Cincinnati: $6.1 million
USF: $4.4 million
Temple: $4.1 million
Tulsa: $3.9 million
UCF: $2.8 million
Tulane: $2.8 million
Houston: $2.6 million
East Carolina: $2.5 million

Now the MVC:

Wichita State: $5.5 million
Bradley: $3.8 million
Drake: $2.6 million
UNI: $2.4 million
Illinois State: $2.4 million
Loyola: $2.4 million
Evansville: $2.3 million
MSU: $2.1 million
Indiana State: $1.7 million
SIU: $1.5 million

Take out Cincinnati and UConn, and the conference is still spending more money. It stands to mention that the 2nd worst school in the AAC spends as much as the 3rd best in the MVC (best referring to spending rate alone). Sure, money doesn't equal success, but it does set at a cap on it. Even the lower end schools have more potential to improve than their counterparts in the MVC.

Absolute, worst-case scenario is Cincinnati, and USF to the Big 12, Connecticut to the ACC, Larry Brown leaving SMU as a dump. Even then Memphis, Tulsa, and Temple would all be above the 2nd best team in the Valley. There is still a degree of risk involved, but I think the opportunity significantly outweighs the risk.
CBB_Fan
MVC starter
MVC starter
 
Posts: 361
Joined: July 10th, 2012, 9:10 am

PreviousNext

Return to Missouri Valley Conference Basketball

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests


cron