#12 Wichita State @ #18 Northern Iowa, 3 PM Saturday, ESPN2

[glm38]

Regarding dirty play: IMO if you look at most tough physical players closely you are going to see things that are technically illegal at times. Almost all effective post players have those types of thing in their repertoire.

And it's true for non post players that play a physical game too. Take Cotton for instance. When the Bears played WSU I was watching the Ruder / Cotton matchup pretty close. I wouldn't classify Cotton as dirty but he was doing a variety of things like hip checks, pushes, hand checks, putting his hand directly in Ruder's face that are technically fouls or even technical fouls. But it's smart basketball. Put any physical basketball player under a microscope and you are going to see things.

Cotton's defense of Ruder created quite a debate on Shockernet. I don't know why Cotton put his hand almost in Ruder's face on more than one occasion. He doesn't need to do that to defend as you know, and has never done that before. This conference has had some really good defenders over the years. The only dirty players that come to mind have worn Cardinal red.

I thought the hand in the face thing was pretty funny actually. Including Ruder slapping it down. Even though Cotton definitely got the better of the matchup (sophomore vs senior) I was pretty proud of Ruder not being intimidated and at least attempting to be physical right back. He's a tough kid.

[SHOXMVC]

Regarding dirty play: IMO if you look at most tough physical players closely you are going to see things that are technically illegal at times. Almost all effective post players have those types of thing in their repertoire.

And it's true for non post players that play a physical game too. Take Cotton for instance. When the Bears played WSU I was watching the Ruder / Cotton matchup pretty close. I wouldn't classify Cotton as dirty but he was doing a variety of things like hip checks, pushes, hand checks, putting his hand directly in Ruder's face that are technically fouls or even technical fouls. But it's smart basketball. Put any physical basketball player under a microscope and you are going to see things.

Cotton's defense of Ruder created quite a debate on Shockernet. I don't know why Cotton put his hand almost in Ruder's face on more than one occasion. He doesn't need to do that to defend as you know, and has never done that before. This conference has had some really good defenders over the years. The only dirty players that come to mind have worn Cardinal red.

I thought the hand in the face thing was pretty funny actually. Including Ruder slapping it down. Even though Cotton definitely got the better of the matchup (sophomore vs senior) I was pretty proud of Ruder not being intimidated and at least attempting to be physical right back. He's a tough kid.

Agree. Ruder had every right to do so.

[ISUBirds89]

Sometimes defense is about frustrating the opposition into mistakes. It could've been a little gamesmanship. Nothing wrong with that.

[Championz]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

First off, I take opinions from the ankle biter fans with a grain of salt. Secondly, you represent the worst fanbase by far in the Valley. Your disdain for Baker comes with the fact that he has owned your asses since the day he stepped on to a basketball court in this league. This type of illogical attitude is why nobody respects Illinois State fans. They cry and get mad and make things up when they get served.

I'd value your opinions more on the subjects of CBI play, middling Valley finishes, basketball irrelevancy, low attendance counts, and poor coaching decisions. Those would all be right up your alley.

[valleychamp]

I see WSUballer is onto his, what, 7th or 8th username?

[rlh04d]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

Not one fan outside of Illinois State has ever, ever agreed with you on Baker.

Much like UNI fans have argued here, give one example of it. Ever. It's an urban legend you guys have created because you have a pathetic obsession with WSU. No one will ever agree with you on it, but since you have your little vacuum on your own board where you can agree with each other, it continues on, in hilarious fashion.

If I cared enough to go watch the UNI game again, I could point out several examples of UNI players flopping, but really it's not that big of a deal to me. They've become much better about in the last few years, and I don't think they flop much more than any other Valley team at this point, so it's not really worth arguing.

[rlh04d]

Just an observation...Ron Baker is and has been the most notorious flopper in the Valley. Any Wichita fans accusing another team of flopping need to acknowledge their own.

Tuttle is not a dirty player. He is utilizing moves that I have witnessed every big man use at one point or another. If the refs aren't going to call it then there is no point to adjust. Nothing dirty about it.

This is a myth that seems to exist mainly in the minds of IlSU fans. Baker probably takes more head shots than any other player in the league. If you want to call falling down after you take an elbow to the cheekbone a flop, then Baker is flopping.

He is known to point out to the refs when they have missed an elbow or arm shot above the shoulders. That's not flopping. That's in the rules and encouraged to cut down on head shots. Want Baker to stop "flopping". Stop whacking him in the head. Pretty simple.

Except all the monitor reviews that show no contact. I've seen in it a few times the past 2 years. Baker would have CTE if he legitimately took that many shots to the head.

Sure. Go grab a few clips and start a thread about it here.

[uniftw]

I know that UNI used to have a reputation under McDermott for "clutch and grab" type stuff but since when is taking charges and using your body and strength "dirty"? I've never heard of Tuttle being a "dirty" player until this season and after watching my fair share of Iowa State and Big XII games this year I still have no idea what he does that isn't widely utilized by big men all over the country. I guess I'm just legitimately confused by what it is the crazies see that makes UNI so much different and dirtier than the rest of the MVC or D-I for that matter. I'm hoping I can just chalk it up to frustration and needing something to blame the Shox's vulnerability on? I know that feeling well as a UNI fan.

I do think Tuttle utilized the hell out of the hook to get past people, but by no means do I think that's dirty. The refs allowed it and he utilized it. That's smart basketball.

In a previous UNI game I watched (and I've seen them play 6 or 7 times this year and viewed the same thing in each game) I commented that Tuttle was "dirty", which was a poor word choice and I later recanted. On many offensive occasions Tuttle uses three moves that are illegal if I am seeing them correctly: lowering the shoulder, hook, grab. If you play on his body, Tuttle will put out the chicken wing prior to the spin. I saw this one time yesterday. If you play off of his body, Tut will lowers his shoulder and gives a bump. Now, maybe its just light contact and there is no advantage gained, but his positioning at the time of contact (knees bent, ball tucked, shoulders angled down) would appear that he is "charging" on the defensive player. I recall three instances of this yesterday. The third illegal movement is the grab. Unless you are watching the opponent, you won't see this. When he is boxed out, and the opponent brings his inside arm down to contain (also an illegal move if you wrap the arm) Tuttle will hold the inside arm of the defender close to his body until the ball caroms off the goal at which time he releases and goes for the rebound. The defender is left trying to rebound one handed until the last second which makes for difficult ball control and creates a 50/50 ball. I saw this twice yesterday. I'm guessing that I missed several examples of this type of play, but I don't care to go back and watch; however as a Panther fan, it might be particularly enjoyable to re-watch the game, and these subtitles can be easily viewed if you are looking for them.

Tuttle has done this all season, and it isn't called often. He is playing smart basketball. He also does many, many perfectly legal things that make him a great Valley player, but it was brought up and so I'm pointing it out if you are interested in reviewing for your own knowledge.

UNI as a whole is not a clutch and grab team this year (nor was it last year) and I wouldn't call them floppers (though I always thought Jake Koch was). They play a very strong defense and shoot exceedingly well. Washpan's ability to get to the rim and Tuttle's interior play really opens up the floor for the perimeter shooters, of which there are many.

So...he does what every single post player worth a damb in the entire nation, regardless of level, does?

What an asshole that should be banned from playing

[uniftw]

Also, fun fact I came across yesterday


UNI holds a 26-24 series lead on WSU now. Not bad considering WSU is gods gift to basketball and UNI is a directional D2 teachers college

[SHOXMVC]

Also, fun fact I came across yesterday


UNI holds a 26-24 series lead on WSU now. Not bad considering WSU is gods gift to basketball and UNI is a directional D2 teachers college

...AND you just can't seem to get out of your own way. Enjoy the fact you dominated and owned the pre-season pick to win this conference yesterday. Enjoy the fact it is not a stretch to think UNI could win this conference. But good grief, there are enough douches on this board...don't add to it.